A few notes and thoughts from Grumpy

[Marshall]

I am not sure why I am writing this because seeing one of my brother's posts didn't seem to have much of a lasting effect. However, sometimes you just do it anyway even though your futile attempts won't change much and you just hope for the best, right? Right?

The following is just a few rambles by me. Yes. Me. Yours truly. Marshall. The author of this thread. The Destroyer of worlds. The Emperor of the Universe. The Nerd behind his Laptop. Wait, what? Point being, it represents my personal views only rather than speaking on behalf of the lofty staff team. Needless to say, this'll get pretty interesting/long-winded pretty fast... so wherever you are right now - your room/mum's basement, the cubicle at work, on the toilet with your smartphone, in your car (keep your eyes on the road, fool!) - sit back, relax and read!

Those who know me since coming to new LFE would probably think I'm some sort of clown, but those who know me before hand, be it 777 era phpBB, old phpBB, lffusion, G4F, danethical LFE would associate me as someone as serious, courteous and sensible most times. Before you start concluding I have a serious case of split personality disorder, I can tell you it's because of the tension I feel here. Not sure how apparent it is for you netizens, but I saw it immediately, especially when comparing it with the old forums that I used to visit. And this alter ego is to try and lubricate things a bit. No, I am not talking about the atrocious chicken VS potato of a war, but this is more like an attitude problem.

Not going to name any names. Whether you have done it or not, you know it best so it's best not to accuse anyone. The tension that I am talking about is a general "talk-down-to-you-because-I-am-better" feel. It's such a shame because there's certainly quite a lot of talent roaming the halls of LFE these days. While being honest is a good thing, that does not mean stepping on others for humour purposes or just being a smart arse would augment your superiority.

I don't care how much experience you've had in the game, or spriting, or data changing, or whatever is in the trend these days. There's always a basic code of honour - respect yourself. People coming in with mad skillz are few and far in between while most of us actually had to start from ground zero. Silva, Chishio and me just to name a couple, definitely started from insignificance.

When criticising someone, first of all give useful advice rather than just whacking out the forum rules then kthxbai. Secondly, think about the original target age of LF2 and relate it to new forum members' behaviour. Thirdly, you can be harsh, but also be encouraging rather than slapping downright dismissals all the time.

Skills can be learnt and picked up overtime if everyone allows them some breathing room and guidance. Respecting others on the other hand, whatever level they are at is something different and can only be changed if you are willing to change.

I am not your mother, but I have, nevertheless been overseeing the LF2 community for more than a while now. It pains me to see how this is all panning out. Some of my esteemed fellow staff members are all in for a rule enforcement rampage, but this does not solve the root of the problem and it's tiring work really. Bear in mind that staffers do lead busy lives - doing such mundane things as going to work, visiting family for the holidays, feasting on ice cream, taking exams, puking on public transport and raping chicks. Then we have to solve outbreaks and protests around here, dealing with pms who spam all of us why we haven't deleted a post that's been posted on a thread that's been inactive for a week...

It truly is a labour of love on our part. Heavy on labour, heavy on love.

Now take heed and show your love too by making this forum a better place.

tl; dr? Go play in traffic.

SirFrog edited this post 01-28-2011 02:51 PM because:

I salute to you, sir! this was the most awesome text which is filled with truth and only the truth. ~ Phil I agree with my colleague. Truly. ~ SirFrog

[Lauli]

When criticising someone, first of all give useful advice rather than just whacking out the forum rules then kthxbai. Secondly, think about the original target age of LF2 and relate it to new forum members' behaviour. Thirdly, you can be harsh, but also be encouraging rather than slapping downright dismissals all the time.

Skills can be learnt and picked up overtime if everyone allows them some breathing room and guidance. Respecting others on the other hand, whatever level they are at is something different and can only be changed if you are willing to change.

• 

Marshall edited this post 01-28-2011 03:47 PM because:

(y)

[Divisor]

So, let me get this straight...you are asking us to show respect and help newcomers?

Well, there's nothing wrong with that...we learned things here and it's only natural to pass them on to the new generations. Except for one thing. Respect, you know, has to be mutual.

Newcomers desreve to be respected as equal, true. But only those who respect us as the community as well. Therefore, if a new members registers and doesn't bother to even read the few simple rules, then I don't plan on showing him respect, because he clearly doesn't respect this forum.

As you put it, and I quote:

When criticising someone, first of all give useful advice rather than just whacking out the forum rules then kthxbai.

If he clearly did not read the rules, I am going to do exactly that. So when he reads the rules and shows the minimum respect to this community, then he can come back and we can help him with his problem.

Secondly, think about the original target age of LF2 and relate it to new forum members' behaviour.

A Latin principle says: Ignorantia iuris nocet. Or in English, being ignorant of law harms. It doesn't matter who they are and how old are they, the first thing they should do on a forum is read the rules. The rules are simple enough to be understood by a 9-year old, so you don't have a case to begin with. Once again, not knowing the rules does not excuse.

Thirdly, you can be harsh, but also be encouraging rather than slapping downright dismissals all the time.

Once again, if he did not read the rules, used search and mainsite at least remotely, then he deserves to get some harsh replies as he clearly did not bother to show even a small degree of respect to us.

Respecting others on the other hand, whatever level they are at

Here's a typical situation:
A member posts a thread, asking for help. He could have easily searched other sections a bit before posting, and if he did not understand something, he could have posted and linked to that respective thread. Aside from that, he breaks some other forum rules (f.e.: spam, necroing, etc.)
Are you asking me to respect such a member? Seriously?
If I answered his question and pretended he did nothing wrong, how is that going to help?
He came here, asking us for help. It's only natural and logical he shows some respect, and then we will, as good members, help him. If he doesn't bother to do that, then hell, I will not bother as well.
Why do we even have the rules, if newcomers are excused in not following them? Are they here just for show, so we can act like we have "laws" and "order" and such?

To conclude, you (forum staff) promised you will enforce the rules more when you revised and updated them. Do that.
But don't only enforce them on us, "experinced" and "old" members, sanction the newcomers too. If they disrespect us by not following the rules, then they don't deserve our respect.

The end.

[Boop]

Does this really happen though? I seldom check the data/spriting forums but I really haven't seen much of it lately. I mean don't get me wrong there are elitists among lfe members, me being one of the biggest ones , but I think most people are civilized in the forums.

I mean if someone made a bad sprite using paint, using one color for each part of the body, people didn't go: "You suck". Rather they did tell him to use more colors and improve shading etc etc.

In the DC forum things are slightly different, but the only useless elitist posts are ones telling people to search the mainsite first, while not actually linking to the bloody article which explains the DC problem. But that is now against the rules thanks to the "back-seat-modding" rule and these people can be warned into oblivion... muahaha.

Hex forum, well I don't think I ever insulted someone without helping them first .

I do insult people on IRC though, to keep my elitist image alive .

Edit:

Divisor, can you bring any other point than "not reading the rules"?
Because seriously. I don't think this justifies anything.

QFE

[Lauli]

Divisor, can you bring any other point than "not reading the rules"?
Because seriously. I don't think this justifies anything.

Also, notice this guys boots. They look amazing, don't they? It's one of the rare cases that I actually put detail at the shoes. Feel honored.

[Divisor]

Doesn't it?
Me referencing the rules doesn't mean anything?

Wow. Just wow.

[Lauli]

Wow! Hahahahaha, yea. Wow!
;D

Also, you still can respect others, even if they didn't read the rules.
It will also make you look like an extraordinary nice person.

[Divisor]

Yeah, I can.
But that would be spoiling, like giving candy to bad children.
It won't help them in the long-run.

[snorsorbet]

Divisor, punishing members is up to the moderators. If your post contains bashing for not reading the rules, don't post. Or at least remove the bashing part :P

It would be much better if we all just left the mods to do their thing (maeby also use the report butten) and posted to help the newcomer if we can.

Ramond edited this post 02-06-2011 10:21 PM because:

Irony snorbet is irony. :P Of course you had to mention the report button, haha

[Alblaka]

Would you mind to stop flaming each other? XD


Jup, people started being harsh to some new members. Sometimes clearly too harsh, as you can see on moderated and disposal'd posts.
However, being completely anti-harsh won't be any good, either, as this will nullify any possible learning effect.

I can understand Marshall's point, though i do not necessarylysjkddik (gah... english fail... necessary... ly, necessa GAAAAH).... i do not always agree with it.
He states the forum went much more "hostile" then the very early version of it. It's may evil to say it, but that's the WWW. The more popular a society becomes, the more "agressive" people join it. Early forum = small forum = nice guys only. Biggest LF2 forum = big forum = idiots joining. It's something like a Law of Internet, people should try living with it, f.e. with moderating those guys who are too harsh, which is actually the case here, i guess.

However, i strongly agree to Divisor, some new people are just plainly doing it wrong. This can happen and i don't mind them doing random nonsense in their first post (excludes stealing chars... that's something i will probably even rage at newcomers about).
In this case, imho, the best way is too keep an on-topic post WITH telling the guy (clearly) that he should probably read the rules because he did xy wrong. Ofc, not only posting "Nub, read rules, you will be banned!", but a reasonable, not-spammy, on-topic post... WITH "read rules, you will be banned".

Lately, i started wondering whether the mods went lazy or just "It's so lol, i just don't want to stop it yet", regarding these "XXXBlackwingXXX" guys, because they clearly overdid it, with spamming, flaming, PM-warning (still lol'ing at that) and the rest. Members, regardless of how new they are, should NEVER be allowed to do such a nonsense. Je, they're banned now, but imo termbanning them after the 2nd day (at last) would have been more useful.


...

K, i lost trace of what i actually wanted to say...

TL;DR conclusion:
Being too harsh is bad, but in some cases telling people to please obey the rules is completely fine.
And someone *coughdivcough* doing exactly this more often then others, should rather be praised then getting freshflamed.


Hugh, Dragon has spoken.