Atheism - ? I agree..

[A-Man]

First of all, about the earth is flat thingy. That article really did explain it in stupid way. When u say bed, this doesn't mean that it has the shape of the bed, the meaning here represents the earth as a resting place for the human beings. It can be easily understood in arabic. Also there are many verses which talks about the spherical earth. Now about part 5) FROM WHAT A MAN WAS MADE. ISLAMIC VERSION: i want u to read this article.., There has been an error translating the meaning of the word "sulb".: http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=2602.
Now for part 6) Muslim Prayer Time Schedule can not be calculated for the location unknown for pre-islamic Middle-East and Asia: Islam got 4 main resources for info and quraan said that too: Qra'an(it self), Sunnah, kias(measuring) and jema'a(agreement of scolars). Usually, for duties toward god, qura'an gives the topics briefly and the sunnah explains it in details. Islam previously has explained the prayer for people who are imprisoned in dark closed places. So from this we measure that space is a place which is closed and we can't find our prayers time. So we pray the same way and imprisoned person would. Also the sun rises every 6 minutes, thats crazy and quraan said:[2:286] Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people."
Every one of these points in the "Quran is wrong" article can be disproven I may answer to them later cuz i am buzzy now. Anyway, good luck!

[LutiChris]

Just my thoughts while i was reading this thread:

Even though I am labeled catholic (raised to believe in God and lacking faith year by year {I guess being an Agnosticism sounds more accurate nowadays}), I can't help but to render an image or rather his existence or delusional presence of "Him" in my conscience. The early belief allowed "him" to leech & worm "his" way into my conscience and I can't shake him off (not forcefully either it's just sort of dull and absent minded here and there). But now the only problem is that because i was instinctively raised to remember him I can't help when it seems like he could be there (assuring me it's "alright").

As I'm reading all most of this, I really have to side with the "smart guys" even though you are atheist. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being an atheist (most of my friends are anyways). Some of the more "atheist-look-in-their-eye's" people seem very unfriendly in my school and at least our catholic community is very friendly (even to atheists). They stand up for what they believe in but I personally haven't seen any of my community member's push people into converting (just the incredibly dressed-up mormons that ride their bikes every single day {up and down our streets} & then the online muslim community who send death-threats to my incredibly radical dad {who is more of "catholic-budhist" i guess} & a small handful of LFE member's {which i will not mention}).

Tl;dr: Even though i believe in a God doesn't mean i oppress my belief's onto others. Acknowledge that much of most of the worldly christian's who rarely go to church except for the usual occasions. (notice my incredibly long run-on-sentences and attempted-use of "intellectual grammar" which i fail @ btw)

and if your one of those "Hey-Luti-why-bother-writing-this-all-down-if-no-one-is-patronizing-you" ---well---
this message was sort of to the people (in school) who did patronize me for finding out that i was catholic (and i couldn't properly defend myself because you simply can't prove it :P + if you guys were thinking about it was just something to type out while it was still fresh in my head)

[klodasmone]

God is Dead. Long live Copernicus, Darwin and Enstein.

[A-Man]

the online muslim community who send death-threats to my incredibly radical dad {who is more of "catholic-budhist" i guess}

Luti, I really believe what u r saying. Some Muslims in this world are really destroying the meaning of Islam and they are going to hell anyway. They got beards, wise talk and every thing, but when it comes to people, they are very hateful and money-lovers. I am really sorry for u about that part....They are a shame.... But believe me, Islam is not like that...

[Kashif]

Believe in God is the most important thing in faith. If someone does not believe that God exists then he is in deep astray.

Does God exist? We have never seen God. We have never talked with God. That is why the Atheists believe God does not exist. It is just a fantasy or a made up thing!

The Story of a Scholar and an Atheist

There is one story of a Scholar and an Atheist. Long ago an Atheist did not believe the existence of God. He asked a scholar for a debate about the existence of God. Among the questions are: “Does God exist?” and “If God exists then where is God?”

Then they decided when and where the debate takes place.

The Atheist and the villagers were waiting for the scholar, but the scholar did not come right on time. When the Atheist and the villagers thought that the scholar will not come for the debate, then the scholar showed up.

“I am sorry to keep you waiting for so long. But the rain is so heavy so the river floods. The bridge drifted away so I could not cross it. Thank God suddenly there was a big tree fell down. Then the branches cut out by themselves so the trunk was branchless. After that the trunk was cut and a hole was created so it became a boat. So I used the boat and crossed the river,” said the scholar.

The Atheist and the villagers were laughing. The Atheist said to the villagers, “This scholar is mad. How can a tree became a boat by itself with no one made it? How can a boat exist with no maker who made it?”

The villagers were laughing out loud.

After the people calmed down, the scholar said, “If you believe that the boat could not exist without its maker, then how could you believe the earth, sky, and its contents exist without its creator? Which is the most difficult to make? Making a boat or creating the earth, sky, and its contents?

Hearing that, they realized that they trapped with their own statement.

“Then answer my second question,” said the Atheist. “If God exists, why can’t He be seen? Where is God?” The Atheist thought since he cannot see God then God does not exist.

The scholar slapped the Atheist’s cheek hardly so the Atheist felt so much pain.

“Why did you slap me? It’s very painful”

The scholar asked, “There is no pain. I cannot see pain. Where is pain?”

“The pain is here,” the Atheist pointed his cheek.

“No, I cannot see pain. Do you see the pain?” asked the scholar to the villagers.

The villagers said, “No!”

“So, though we cannot see the pain does not mean that the pain does not exist. So is the God. Just because we cannot see the God does not mean that God does not exist. Though we cannot see Him, but we can see His creations.” Said the scholar.

The argument of the scholar is very simple. Yet, the argument that God does not exist just because human’s sense could not sense the existence of God is very wrong.

How many things that could not be seen or heard by people but exist?

We cannot see the Wind but the Wind exists. We cannot see electricity (what you can see is wire) but electricity exist.

How many things in the sky that billions light years away, even trillions light years away that could not be seen by people yet the things exist?

How many molecular things even nucleus (hair divided in millions) that cannot be seen by people yet exist? People could only see those things by using a very powerful microscope.

How many waves (radio, electromagnetic, electricity, etc) that cannot be seen yet exist?

Those things exist, yet the human sense is very limited so it cannot sense their existence.

The human ability to see colors limited to certain frequencies. People only could hear limited frequencies. Sometimes the light not only very dazzling but also could make people blind. So is the sound. Certain sound could not be heard by human sense while other sound which is very loud could destroy human‘s hearing.

If to sense the creatures of God, sometimes people could not do it, even more to sense the Creator: God!

The Universe, Who is its Creator?

It is hard to proof that God exists. But if we take a look to the planes, cars, TVs, etc, it would be irrational if we say that all exist by themselves. There must be people who make them!

If the simple thing such as the match has its makers, then the universe that far more complex than that must be has its creator.

The Earth where 8 billion people live has circumference 40,000 km. The circumference of the Sun is 4.3 million km. The Sun and its 8 planets along with 100 billion stars are in the Milky Way galaxy whose length is 100,000 light years away.

Milky Way is only a galaxy among thousands galaxies that form a Cluster. This cluster with thousands clusters form 1 Super Cluster. And thousands of Super Clusters form the Universe whose length is 30 billion light years away! Remember, the number 30 billion light years away only current estimation since the strongest telescope today only could reach 15 billion light years away.

Imagine if the distance between Earth and the Sun is 150 million km and passed by the light in just 8 minute, then the whole Universe passed by the light in 30 billion years. That is equal to 285 billion trillion km away. If a man could run 40 km/hour without stopping, he would pass the distance in 810,000 trillion years!

That is the greatness of Allah’s creation! If we believe in the magnificence of Allah’s creation, then we should believe in the magnificence of Allah.

In the Quran Allah explains that He is the creator of Heaven, Star, Sun, Moon, and others:

“Blessed be He Who hath placed in the heaven mansions of the stars, and hath placed therein a great lamp and a moon giving light!” [Quran 25:61]

Is there a Controller of the Universe?

There are millions of people controlling the traffic on road, sea, and air. Beacons are built. People also build traffic light and radar. Air Traffic Control is built to prevent accident. All vehicles have drivers. Even on airplane there are pilot and co-pilot to make the flight safer. On the ships there are Captain, navigator, and engineers. Yet thousands of accidents happen every year on land, sea, and air. Even though there are many controllers, the accidents still happen.

On the contrary, the Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, and others always revolve for billions of years without single crash. Most scientists believe that the Earth, Sun, and all of the other planets and moons in the solar system formed about 4.6 billion years ago. For billions of years until now the Earth never bump into the Sun, and the Sun never collides with the Moon. There is no mark, police, nor pilots to drive them. Without God, the Controller of the Universe, none of these would happen. Everything is in order because there is God who controls everything. Allah has put orbit for each of those things. If we really think about it then we will know that God exist.

“He it is who appointed the sun a splendor and the moon stages, that ye might know the number of the years, and the reckoning. Allah created not (all) that save in truth. He detaileth the revelations for people who have knowledge” [Quran 10:5]

“It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit” [Quran:40]

.

People who think a lot about universe insha Allah will believe that there is a God!

“Allah it is who raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne, and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service, each runneth unto an appointed term; He ordereth the course; He detaileth the revelations, that haply ye may be certain of the meeting with your Lord.” [Quran 13:2]

“Such as remember Allah, standing, sitting, and reclining, and consider the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say): Our Lord! Thou createdst not this in vain. Glory be to Thee! Preserve us from the doom of Fire” [Quran 3:191]

Who is the Creator of People and Plants?

To those arrogant people who deny the existence of God, Allah questions them about His creatures. Who is the creator of sperm and plant? People or God the All Wise Creator?

“Have ye seen that which ye emit?

Do ye create it or are We the creator?” [Quran 56:58-59]

“Have ye seen that which ye cultivate?

Is it ye who foster it, or are We the Fosterer?” [Quran 56:63-64]

“Was it ye who made the tree thereof to grow, or were We the grower?” [Quran 56:72]

Can Men Create a Fly?

In another verse, Allah challenges others to create a fly if they could do it. Men may be could make robots from things that created by Allah. Yet, none could make a fly from nothing nor thing that could reproduce except Allah:

“…Lo! Those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from him. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought!” [Quran 22:73]

There are many other Quran verses that describe the existence of God and God is the All Wise Creator.

http://islammyreligion.wordpress.com

[qwertz143]

Ok, I actually read your whole story, but I still must argue that you see if god created the world, man, universe, sperm etc. why didnt he create planes, bikes, and all vast technology. why hasnt he stopped global warming? Why is god letting murderers killing innocents? if god were real he would have stopped and made the earth a peaceful place, but he hasn't
why do innocent people die everyday
what about overpopulation?
why doesnt "god" save their lives or finish off the undeserving ones?
probably because he isnt real...

Now i got a little bored with these arguements so I went to several sites to check for proof of God's Existence
here is one:
THOMAS AQUINAS' 'PROOFS'
The five 'proofs' asserted by Thomas Aquinas in the thirteenth
century don't prove anything, and are easily - though I hesitate to
say so, given his eminence - exposed as vacuous. The first three are
just different ways of saying the same thing, and they can be considered
together. All involve an infinite regress - the answer to a
question raises a prior question, and so on ad infinitum.
1 The Unmoved Mover. Nothing moves without a prior mover.
This leads us to a regress, from which the only escape is God.
Something had to make the first move, and that something we
call God.
2 The Uncaused Cause. Nothing is caused by itself. Every effect
has a prior cause, and again we are pushed back into regress.
This has to be terminated by a first cause, which we call
God.
3 The Cosmological Argument. There must have been a time
when no physical things existed. But, since physical things exist
now, there must have been something non-physical to bring
them into existence, and that something we call God.

Now,
All three of these arguments rely upon the idea of a regress and
invoke God to terminate it. They make the entirely unwarranted
assumption that God himself is immune to the regress. Even if we
allow the dubious luxury of arbitrarily conjuring up a terminator to
an infinite regress and giving it a name, simply because we need
one, there is absolutely no reason to endow that terminator with
any of the properties normally ascribed to God: omnipotence,
omniscience, goodness, creativity of design, to say nothing of such
human attributes as listening to prayers, forgiving sins and reading
innermost thoughts. Incidentally, it has not escaped the notice of logicians
that omniscience and omnipotence are mutually incompatible. If
God is omniscient, he must already know how he is going to intervene
to change the course of history using his omnipotence. But that means
he can't change his mind about his intervention, which means he is not
omnipotent...
Here's a poem:
Can omniscient God, who
Knows the future, find
The omnipotence to
Change His future mind?

See, To return to the infinite regress and the futility of invoking God
to terminate it, it is more parsimonious to conjure up, say, a 'big
bang singularity', or some other physical concept as yet unknown.
Calling it God is at best unhelpful and at worst perniciously misleading.
Edward Lear's Nonsense Recipe for Crumboblious Cutlets
invites us to 'Procure some strips of beef, and having cut them into
the smallest possible pieces, proceed to cut them still smaller, eight
or perhaps nine times.' Some regresses do reach a natural
terminator. Scientists used to wonder what would happen if you
could dissect, say, gold into the smallest possible pieces. Why
shouldn't you cut one of those pieces in half and produce an even
smaller smidgen of gold? The regress in this case is decisively
terminated by the atom. The smallest possible piece of gold is a
nucleus consisting of exactly seventy-nine protons and a slightly
larger number of neutrons, attended by a swarm of seventy-nine
electrons. If you 'cut' gold any further than the level of the single
atom, whatever else you get it is not gold. The atom provides a
natural terminator to the Crumboblious Cutlets type of regress. It
is by no means clear that God provides a natural terminator to the
regresses of Aquinas. That's putting it mildly, as we shall see later.
Let's move on down Aquinas' list.

4 The Argument from Degree. We notice that things in the world
differ. There are degrees of, say, goodness or perfection. But
we judge these degrees only by comparison with a maximum.
Humans can be both good and bad, so the maximum goodness
cannot rest in us. Therefore there must be some other maximum
to set the standard for perfection, and we call that
maximum God.

u call that an argument ? You might as well say, people vary in smelliness
but we can make the comparison only by reference to a perfect
maximum of conceivable smelliness. Therefore there must exist a
pre-eminently peerless stinker, and we call him God. Or substitute
any dimension of comparison you like, and derive an equivalently
fatuous conclusion.

Next,
5 The Teleological Argument, or Argument from Design. Things
in the world, especially living things, look as though they
have been designed. Nothing that we know looks designed
unless it is designed. Therefore there must have been a designer,
and we call him God.

Aquinas himself used the analogy of an
arrow moving towards a target, but a modern heat-seeking
anti-aircraft missile would have suited his purpose better.
The argument from design is the only one still in regular use
today, and it still sounds to many like the ultimate knockdown
argument. The young Darwin was impressed by it when, as a
Cambridge undergraduate, he read it in William Paley's Natural
Theology. Unfortunately for Paley, the mature Darwin blew it out
of the water. There has probably never been a more devastating
rout of popular belief by clever reasoning than Charles Darwin's
destruction of the argument from design. It was so unexpected.
Thanks to Darwin, it is no longer true to say that nothing that we
know looks designed unless it is designed. Evolution by natural
selection produces an excellent simulacrum of design, mounting
prodigious heights of complexity and elegance. And among these
eminences of pseudo-design are nervous systems which - among
their more modest accomplishments - manifest goal-seeking
behaviour that, even in a tiny insect, resembles a sophisticated heatseeking
missile more than a simple arrow on target.
I hope you get what im saying :P

Ok, now Kashif, let me translate you're story that god supposedly exists and atheists gets slapped by scholars into the appropriate
language, which is the language of the playground:
'Bet you I can prove God exists.'
'Bet you can't.'
'Right then, imagine the most perfect perfect perfect
thing possible.'
'Okay, now what?'
'Now, is that perfect perfect perfect thing real? Does it
exist?'
'No, it's only in my mind.'
'But if it was real it would be even more perfect,
because a really really perfect thing would have to be
better than a silly old imaginary thing. So I've proved that
God exists. Nur Nurny Nur Nur. All atheists are fools.'

ok now

1 The creation of the world is the most marvellous achievement
imaginable.
2 The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic
quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
3 The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more
impressive the achievement.
4 The most formidable handicap for a creator would be nonexistence.
5 Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an
existent creator we can conceive a greater being - namely, one
who created everything while not existing.
6 An existing God therefore would not be a being greater than
which a greater cannot be conceived because an even more formidable
and incredible creator would be a God which did not
exist.
Ergo:
7 God does not exist.

Needless to say, Gasking didn't really prove that God does not
exist, but also Kashif didnt really prove that God did :P

now finally
I have, however, read wonderful
'proofs' collected at http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/
GodProof.htm, a richly comic numbered list of 'Over Three
Hundred Proofs of God's Existence'. Here's a hilarious half-dozen I picked up,
beginning with Proof Number 36.
36 Argument from Incomplete Devastation: A plane crashed
killing 143 passengers and crew. But one child survived
with only third-degree burns. Therefore God exists.
37 Argument from Possible Worlds: If things had been
different, then things would be different. That would be
bad. Therefore God exists.
38 Argument from Sheer Will: I do believe in God! I do
believe in God! I do I do I do. I do believe in God!
Therefore God exists.
39 Argument from Non-belief: The majority of the world's
population are non-believers in Christianity. This is just
what Satan intended. Therefore God exists.
40 Argument from Post-Death Experience: Person X died an
atheist. He now realizes his mistake. Therefore God exists.
41 Argument from Emotional Blackmail: God loves you.
How could you be so heartless as not to believe in him?
Therefore God exists.

Lmao!!! XD
See those who believe in god are actually the ones who are "fools"
To everyone, especially Kashif, as the arguement is toward you, I hope you read all of this as it was hard work :P
Thank you, and god does not exist

i hope i receive an answer :/

p.s. Nur Nurny Nur Nur means Nah Na Nah Naah Naaah or Nanny Nanny Boo Boo

[A-Man]

Ok, I actually read your whole story, but I still must argue that you see if god created the world, man, universe, sperm etc. why didnt he create planes, bikes, and all vast technology. why hasnt he stopped global warming? Why is god letting murderers killing innocents? if god were real he would have stopped and made the earth a peaceful place, but he hasn't
why do innocent people die everyday
what about overpopulation?
why doesnt "god" save their lives or finish off the undeserving ones?
probably because he isnt real...

Dude, wat do u think is higher at the technology, a human being or a robot. A horse or a car, a fly or a plane?. All this time, scientists have been trying to create things to be similar to wat god made. When u go to a dentist, and he tells u that one of ur teeth needs to be pullen off and replaced by another man-made one. Is that new teeth as good as the old one that god made?. Well the answer is nope...
And.. stop global warming? why would he do that? this earth was made to be a test place for all of us. And these natural disasters are there to remind people that they last and one's left, the creator of this earth. Imagine if god made this as a perfect with no natural disasters or anything that can end it. What would people say? They would probably say "this earth will always stay like this. and so there is nothing like judgement day because human population will never end, but it increases day after another".
and why is god letting murderers killing innocents?... imagine a judge punishing a person for thinking about murdering a person. What would the person say? "but i didn't kill!". Well thats right, the judge can't punish the murderer who didn't kill yet. And can't even call him a murderer. Though god already pre-destinate our lives. He said that he will not punish people without a reason for it, to get everybody fully satisfied (actually not all of 'em) about their punishment/award. And in the end, we are going through a test now which will determine our real future.
Allah said:
"Indeed, the Qur'an is a decisive statement, And it is not amusement. Indeed, they are planning a plan, But I am planning a plan.So allow time for the disbelievers. Leave them awhile."

And how can this world create it self? well, if it did, where did the energy needed came from? This world, as we know some of it properties, cannot give it self its own energy. A rule in pysics says 'energy cannot be created, nor deleted'.

[qwertz143]

Ok, I actually read your whole story, but I still must argue that you see if god created the world, man, universe, sperm etc. why didnt he create planes, bikes, and all vast technology. why hasnt he stopped global warming? Why is god letting murderers killing innocents? if god were real he would have stopped and made the earth a peaceful place, but he hasn't
why do innocent people die everyday
what about overpopulation?
why doesnt "god" save their lives or finish off the undeserving ones?
probably because he isnt real...

Dude, wat do u think is higher at the technology, a human being or a robot. A horse or a car, a fly or a plane?. All this time, scientists have been trying to create things to be similar to wat god made. When u go to a dentist, and he tells u that one of ur teeth needs to be pullen off and replaced by another man-made one. Is that new teeth as good as the old one that god made?. Well the answer is nope...
And.. stop global warming? why would he do that? this earth was made to be a test place for all of us. And these natural disasters are there to remind people that they last and one's left, the creator of this earth. Imagine if god made this as a perfect with no natural disasters or anything that can end it. What would people say? They would probably say "this earth will always stay like this. and so there is nothing like judgement day because human population will never end, but it increases day after another".
and why is god letting murderers killing innocents?... imagine a judge punishing a person for thinking about murdering a person. What would the person say? "but i didn't kill!". Well thats right, the judge can't punish the murderer who didn't kill yet. And can't even call him a murderer. Though god already pre-destinate our lives. He said that he will not punish people without a reason for it, to get everybody fully satisfied (actually not all of 'em) about their punishment/award. And in the end, we are going through a test now which will determine our real future.
Allah said:
"Indeed, the Qur'an is a decisive statement, And it is not amusement. Indeed, they are planning a plan, But I am planning a plan.So allow time for the disbelievers. Leave them awhile."

And how can this world create it self? well, if it did, where did the energy needed came from? This world, as we know some of it properties, cannot give it self its own energy. A rule in pysics says 'energy cannot be created, nor deleted'.

ok, when i get more time, im going to edit this post and answer each question, individually.. But for now to answer your statements and questions as a whole, here's some logic using a visual

see basically the arguement is going on and on and on with no purpose :P someone should show me some god or some sort of visible proof :/

[A-Man]

Anyway, I don't really have the energy to argue anymore. I think i did wat is enough to make u beleive, but still, u won't.
So here is a quote from quraan:
"Say, "O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship. Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship. Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."

[qwertz143]

Spoiler (Click to View)

Religion:
Oh sh*t!

Taoism:
sh*t happens.

Buddhism:
If sh*t happens, it's not really sh*t.

Islam:
If sh*t happens, it's the will of Allah.

Protestantism:
sh*t happens because you don't work hard enough.

Judaism:
Why does this sh*t always happen to us?

Hinduism:
This sh*t happened before.

Catholicism:
sh*t happens because you're bad.

Hare Krishna:
sh*t happens rama rama.

T.V. Evangelism:
Send more sh*t.

Atheism:
No sh*t.

Jehova's Witness:
Knock knock, sh*t happens.

Hedonism:
There's nothing like a good sh*t happening.

Christian Science:
sh*t happens in your mind.

Agnosticism:
Maybe sh*t happens, maybe it doesn't.

Rastafarianism:
Let's smoke this sh*t.

Existentialism:
What is sh*t anyway?

Stoicism:
This sh*t doesn't bother me.

someone else please continue this arguement, its only A-MAN, Kashif and me :P