[Char] Frena

[Nyamaiku]

okay, im just back from my physics exam.
i actually think of this character during the exam. and i finally understand something.
its not really the combo idea that i dislike. its how she do her combo and attacks.
she was suppose to be swift right? but look at her attack -swinging up at such speed, striking while holding the spear with one hand, make it feel more like the powerful kind. maybe she shouldnt do powerful swings and strikes but pokes/stab and sweep. or at least make her has a slower wind up and use both arms to hold the staff as she swing it. that should fit her looks more

[YinYin]

okay, im just back from my physics exam.
i actually think of this character during the exam. and i finally understand something.
its not really the combo idea that i dislike. its how she do her combo and attacks.
she was suppose to be swift right? but look at her attack -swinging up at such speed, striking while holding the spear with one hand, make it feel more like the powerful kind. maybe she shouldnt do powerful swings and strikes but pokes/stab and sweep. or at least make her has a slower wind up and use both arms to hold the staff as she swing it. that should fit her looks more

Hm, you are right about that.
But I imagine the staff to be pretty light - it does not compare to LouisEX' trident in terms of weight.

Also swinging something long one handed isn't all that difficult compared to holding something long on one end horizontally.
I'm certainly taking these things into account:

The super attack for example does have a long wind up where she first raises her hand along the staff to gain some potential energy on her grip for the swing.
So the motion itself lifts most of its own weight there requiring less effort from her. (sure she still has to raise it above her head, but let's face it: she cannot be actually weak to handle a weapon like this swiftly, both one or single handed - still she doesn't have to be as muscle packed as Louis seems to be, considering how far he can throw boulders ...)
The run attack isn't perfect yet I admit - I plan to let her drop the tip of the staff more forcefully after the jab and drag it back over the ground. Again, up till the point where she holds onto it at its end, she doesn't need to apply much force because this is supposed to be like a spear throw. She holds the staff below the tip at the very beginning and lets it slide through her hand for the attack before keeping hold of the end to not let it fly away. (the point where it obviously needs to drop to the ground)
And the planned combo only adds one more single handed swing, which in this case goes downward and abuses both gravity and the tension build up from the first two handed hit with the other end.

I'll hand it to you that LouisEX also abuses tension all around his back for the up swing, but I'll just point back at his trident being a lot heavier than her staff since it was part of his armor.

So you could say she pretends to be powerful, when in reality she just abuses quite a few tricks. Which is a swift and clever way to fight.

The pokes and stabs are already there for basic attacks and run attack. The sweeps are there for the special moves as they gain reach via projectiles rather than the staff.
And I cannot help but keep a good range on super/jump/dash attack swings to be planned. All within reason (wind up/recovery/energy sources for the respective motion).
Because why give her such a long weapon if she never makes use of it. Might as well have a tiny club like John then.
The speed of the attacks in the gif isn't really anything definite. These kind of things have to be iterated by play testing.

Anyway, I'll keep this in mind once I start spriting delicately powerful looking motions and scripting their timing.

edit: On a side note: to me 'slower' goes along with 'less swift' -> a certain speed is actually required to be swift. So I'd rather combine quick swings, no matter how ridiculously large and single handed they are, with long wind up and recovery than make her handle it two handed with less reach and/or slower at all times. Gotta have a good share of everything for each attack to make sense among the others; on more levels than just the damage they deal.

[Nyamaiku]

Because why give her such a long weapon if she never makes use of it. Might as well have a tiny club like John then.

hmm...you're right. about the D>J, the bazooka stance seem a bit strange to me, as the staff isnt big in radius...maybe more of a "bending down one knee" kind of kneel, while holding the staff more like a sniper?

off topic:
but john's weapon isnt really a club. if you look at the sprite carefully, it often changes shape, twisting and turning. so i would say it is actually a big brown jello

Spoiler (Click to View)

i intend to say something else but i have to consider that kids visit this forum too

[YinYin]

about the D>J, the bazooka stance seem a bit strange to me, as the staff isnt big in radius...maybe more of a "bending down one knee" kind of kneel, while holding the staff more like a sniper?

I've actually meant that. The sketch is just very bad, but I tried to tilt the head slightly to indicate aiming. Also the kneeling is a must for support - on rocket launchers too. Just didn't portray it there.

but john's weapon isnt really a club. if you look at the sprite carefully, it often changes shape, twisting and turning. so i would say it is actually a big brown jello

It is a club. Shape shifting things in motion is pretty common for frame by frame animated action and I'm not afraid t do the same to Frenas staff if I think it fits.

[Raven]

Hi, some thought from my side: the element fire represents curiousity, liveliness and passion. She maybe should me more active and less bored.
I go with the idea of a spear, cause the triangle shape (or other spiky things) matches for fire types.
And the jumper is a good idea, it kind of bothers me when I see fighting characters in uncomfortable suits.

Also you know, I dig cool, intelligent and independent women (;
(it doesnt always have to be something for the eyes, but for the mind!)

[injured]

good idea! its been a long time since we have a good female character,
and we have two frozens but dont have too many good fire-related character.
a female one will be great!
since she has a spear, i think its good if she can attack while running like louis ex.

[Nyamaiku]

good idea! its been a long time since we have a good female character,
and we have two frozens but dont have too many good fire-related character.

agree with having another female / flame character
but

since she has a spear, i think its good if she can attack while running like louis ex.

its a staff...

@YinYin
i think the upper right side of her front hair need a bit of editing
and thought that maybe if you shade about 1/3 (or 2/5) of the left side of the tummy, she may not have the fat tummy look, since it seem to be caused by the shading under her breasts
the crotch of the leotard also somehow look a bit strange

-edit:
got new ideas about her. is the normal attack projectile going to be arest? because i think the 100% burn of the 3rd hit may be a bit too good.
how about a 50% or 33% burn? (3 arest itrs. 1 that burn, 2 that is normal)
dop with one hit is also pretty strong. maybe 1st and 2nd hit is fall 50?
the grab attack definitely shouldnt be a head butt. she doesnt have a hard head(did she?) like knight. knee kicks like deeps should be better.

-edit2(i dont want to make a new post):
if you want it to burn only falling enemies it HAS to be vrest. but maybe if you make a mod for her(which is more than 90% not going to happen), a special body can be put into all existing characters for this to work
having vrest normal attacks is another reason to not cause dop in one shot. (unless she is not meant to be balanced)
what i said about the hair,leotard and tummy is in the sprite, not the sketch. i wouldnt go into this kind of details on just a sketch

[YinYin]

Hi, some thought from my side: the element fire represents curiousity, liveliness and passion. She maybe should me more active and less bored.

About the fire personality: I won't change her attitude because it's the reason I want to create her. Also I got several reasons why the traits you listed don't necessarily conflict with her bored look:
First of all these traits don't have to show - she may have them, but apparently not when it comes to fighting. (at least for the boredom - she is a very active fighter after all)
Second: personality types aren't pure and just one direction such as all these active fire traits - she is more than this.
Third: fire may actually not be her natural element - she cannot conjure fire without the staff, so that power only comes with this item. Anyone actively training with it could create fire.

Also while her bored appearance may oppose most obvious fire characteristics I tend to find a lot that I think does apply to her:
"Fire people can be as fascinating, as hypnotic, as watching a campfire. [...] Rather than thinking, like an Air person, or feeling, like a Water person, the Fire person "just knows." [She] goes by [her] gut and once [she] is sure of something, [she] doesn't waver. [..] They can choose to take in other elements, thereby assuring they won't burn out." The last sentence here being a good explanation for the bored look.
"Exhibits: high spirits, great faith in self- a fairly unrelenting insistence on [her] own point of view [...] intense assertiveness, individualism, active and self-expressive [...] belief in self and own powers [...] blunt honesty - straightforward [...] Needs: a good deal of freedom to express [herself] naturally [...] Can help: stimulate people who are more lethargic"
"Overconfident" Another reason to be bored to hell, whenever this attitude stays true to reality.

Anyway, you can probably find some fitting traits for her in every element type personality description.

I go with the idea of a spear, cause the triangle shape (or other spiky things) matches for fire types.
And the jumper is a good idea, it kind of bothers me when I see fighting characters in uncomfortable suits.

The staff design is again something I won't change as it's the second reason I want to create her. It already does have spiky tips and a spear would require her to do less swinging attacks and more stabbing, but I'm already set on her motions. And thanks for backing up her simple clothing :)

I dig cool, intelligent and independent women (;

Who doesn't?!

good idea! its been a long time since we have a good female character,
and we have two frozens but dont have too many good fire-related character.
a female one will be great!

Since I'm partly responsible for the two Frozens this shall give me more reason to do this!

since she has a spear, i think its good if she can attack while running like louis ex.

Well this isn't a spear, but a staff. A light one at that compared to LouisEX' trident (and she is light compared to him too) - that alone gives many reasons to not do this:
Due to the low weight she won't have as much momentum as Louis to keep running through opponents.
The staff doesn't have a pointy center like the trident (or a spear); upon contact it would always be pushed away from the straight attack line.
On top of all that she will be a slow runner, thus even if she did point it forward it wouldn't be much of an attack.

Also even though she will do some swings similar to LouisEX, because you can't do that many very differing things with a staff unless you go for really complex acrobatics, she really shouldn't copy too many of his moves.

@YinYin
i think the upper right side of her front hair need a bit of editing
and thought that maybe if you shade about 1/3 (or 2/5) of the left side of the tummy, she may not have the fat tummy look, since it seem to be caused by the shading under her breasts
the crotch of the leotard also somehow look a bit strange

Is this about the concept art? If so I won't bother working on it.
Just look at what John was supposed to look like: http://lf2.net/progress_image/john.jpg
(I really like this design and want to see an alternate skin like that some day - fist fighting badass John!)

-edit:
got new ideas about her. is the normal attack projectile going to be arest? because i think the 100% burn of the 3rd hit may be a bit too good.
how about a 50% or 33% burn? (3 arest itrs. 1 that burn, 2 that is normal)

All 3 are arest. And second/third will always burn already falling opponents. Why do you think that is too good? They both have a lower reach than the first shot, so you need to be rather close initially to hit the knocked out opponent with the third projectile.

edit: Maybe I'll have to do vrest on second and third projectile now that you mention it. This will require testing.

edit:

dop with one hit is also pretty strong. maybe 1st and 2nd hit is fall 50?

I intend the first shot to behave in a similar way to Henrys arrow. She does take a long time to pull the staff from behind her back (like Henry pulling an arrow), so I think it's justified.

the grab attack definitely shouldnt be a head butt. she doesnt have a hard head(did she?) like knight. knee kicks like deeps should be better.

Agreed, forgot about that option. Just had to quickly think of something that doesn't involve the staff.

if you want it to burn only falling enemies it HAS to be vrest.
having vrest normal attacks is another reason to not cause dop in one shot. (unless she is not meant to be balanced)

The first shot cannot burn at all and will always be arest. So I think vrest on second and third may be okay to achieve the falling fire. (also second and third shot won't be able to do dop as their non fire itr needs to be below fall 60)

what i said about the hair,leotard and tummy is in the sprite, not the sketch. i wouldnt go into this kind of details on just a sketch

Ok, what exactly needs editing in those hair areas? Different shape? Less face area covered?
I'll experiment with the other problems once I try to make the boots stand out.

[Nyamaiku]

more on ideas:
now that you mention it, the part about her shot inflicting dop is ok. since she has a slower run and has to pull the staff from back to front.
something about the normal shots spawning ground fire annoys me. no matter how short the time its there it can still burn, and burnt enemies will spread fire and wouldnt be able to flip. tactical players like me would abuse it too much. i would just get to the right position and keep using normal attack then. how about a little burst/spark that inflict minimal damage with low fall instead of flames?

@sprite:
im not that sure about the boots, maybe a bit more shading? or just make it a little darker?
anyway, the hair somehow pokes out a bit on the upper right, but that may just be my perfectionist ego working up. this can be ignored


edit(yup, not more than 30 minutes and another idea/comment):
her boots shouldnt be like davis(facing 2 directions) but only facing one direction. she is a girl, mind you. and a cute one at that. at least make her standing stance a bit more girlish. (Jan's standing faces 2 direction too. but she is not a cute girl so i dont mind)

[YinYin]

something about the normal shots spawning ground fire annoys me. no matter how short the time its there it can still burn, and burnt enemies will spread fire and wouldnt be able to flip. tactical players like me would abuse it too much. i would just get to the right position and keep using normal attack then. how about a little burst/spark that inflict minimal damage with low fall instead of flames?

That would remove all fire properties from the first shot. I don't want that.
Sure you can abuse it if you like, but keep these things in mind:
Basic projectiles will use mp - abusing them will leave you low and unable to take advantage of special moves. (same as Henry and Rudolf)
The basic attack is slow and the created ground fire won't last long - you will have a hard time trying to fend off bigger crowds forever.
Ground fire and burning opponents do only very little damage. You may use it to hold them off for a while but it won't win your fight.
If the projectile does hit an opponent you won't have the ground fire at all. So this only helps as long as they are just out of reach. Once opponents are too close, missing them on purpose won't really help as creating ground fire behind them doesn't really do anything. While they are still too far away the fire will run out before they walk into it.

im not that sure about the boots, maybe a bit more shading? or just make it a little darker?
anyway, the hair somehow pokes out a bit on the upper right, but that may just be my perfectionist ego working up. this can be ignored

Already darkened the boots once, so yes I may try to do that again. Those hair parts seem fine to me.

her boots shouldnt be like davis(facing 2 directions) but only facing one direction. she is a girl, mind you. and a cute one at that. at least make her standing stance a bit more girlish. (Jan's standing faces 2 direction too. but she is not a cute girl so i dont mind)

I disagree. First of all the cute thing is very subjective. I bet many would rather consider Jan cute than Frena. Other than that feet at an outward angle make a more stable stance, which is important for her opposed to looking girly.