Atheism - ? I agree..

[The Hari]

okay, so here is my reply to Apocalipsis.

as we know, all what is surrounding us is made from matter, matter is made from atoms. but as i said earlier, world where we live isn't only one. if we can perform reincarnation somewhere else, nobody said other "worlds" are the same. we don't know too much about, but we know exist also something like anti-matter. other worlds can be "build" from something else and also soul can be made from unknown, maybe even not has existence in our world material. even feelings are just results of hormones, so love and hatred are artificial. soul doesn't hold our feelings "inside". maybe feelings exist only on this world. we aren't yourself thanks to soul, this brain givs us character. so yeah, animals also have soul (reincarnation also as animal). maybe our "real form" isn't human, maybe we're just this "energy" without feelings, body, without anything what we know from this world. so imo,this world is completely false, i wonder if we even live now. this mean we live, but in the way known only in this world. is this life is real? if we are some kind of supernatural creatures (between reincarnations), "these lifes" are just for fun?

i didn't write too much, but i was thinking a lot about this.

[Apocalipsis]

as we know, all what is surrounding us is made from matter, matter is made from atoms. but as i said earlier, world where we live isn't only one. if we can perform reincarnation somewhere else, nobody said other "worlds" are the same. we don't know too much about, but we know exist also something like anti-matter. other worlds can be "build" from something else and also soul can be made from unknown, maybe even not has existence in our world material. even feelings are just results of hormones, so love and hatred are artificial. soul doesn't hold our feelings "inside". maybe feelings exist only on this world. we aren't yourself thanks to soul, this brain givs us character. so yeah, animals also have soul (reincarnation also as animal). maybe our "real form" isn't human, maybe we're just this "energy" without feelings, body, without anything what we know from this world. so imo,this world is completely false, i wonder if we even live now. this mean we live, but in the way known only in this world. is this life is real? if we are some kind of supernatural creatures (between reincarnations), "these lifes" are just for fun?

Well, by that definition of soul, then you shouldn't believe in reincarnation, hell or heaven, because once your brain stops, "you" are gone.
What may remain is this weird energy or human essence wich is immeasurable in this 'dimension' (to call it like that).

The last part is again interesting. You're wondering if we are inside the Matrix, in a way. And it's something you believe or not, there's nothing you can do about it, I think.
Since you also seem to take this possibility into consideration, you should read about hardcore Idealism or Solipsism:

In philosophy, idealism is the group of philosophies which assert that reality, or reality as we can know it, is fundamentally mental, mentally constructed, or otherwise immaterial. Epistemologically, idealism manifests as a skepticism about the possibility of knowing any mind-independent thing.

This thread is quite good actually. Even though I don't share the idelogic point of view of most religions, I get to know more about them, and they are interesting. Just as learning history.

[qwertz143]

to the previous posts:
ok, but people as much as an atheist i am, umm we'll have a discussion but dont ridicule or like swear at someones god :/ i guess it hurts the believers?

[The Hari]

Well, by that definition of soul, then you shouldn't believe in reincarnation, hell or heaven, because once your brain stops, "you" are gone.
What may remain is this weird energy or human essence wich is immeasurable in this 'dimension' (to call it like that).

i don't believe in heaven and hell. but reincarnation still is possible. yeah, "me" are gone, but this is only "me" from this world. look what i wrote earlier:

maybe we can even choose, how will be looking our life, "before this life" - something between next incarnation - this place is "the god".

maybe our "real form" isn't human, maybe we're just this "energy" without feelings, body, without anything what we know from this world.

[...]

"these lifes" are just for fun?

so actually we're just puppets. my character, feelings, thoughts are nothing, it's just something what choose "my real form", and this real form after me death will be see me as something what was just box for him. damn, it's kinda sick.

[Reaper]

You guys are too fast for somebody like me to keep up with this thread Probably the last time I'll be writing in here, but I can't keep things unanswered, can I?

Islam said that the other older books where created by god, but then edited by people to serve their needs. So a book edited by people isn't really accepted as a religion book.

This is a rather circular argument, don't you think? I mean, you need to believe that what is written in the quran is the truth to conclude that the quran is the one true religion book. Also, as I said, I'm not referring to the bible and torah only.

I'm deliberately not quoting the part about the creation of the universe, because it's quite clear we're just running in circles with that argument.

They were true in the end....so, true
[...]
This shows that it wasn't written by a human being. And this was also written in the qura'an not only in the video.
[...]
So true and qura'an approved that.
[...]
So quraan told the truth here either.

You seem to miss my point. I'm not saying that what the quran says is false. I'm saying that it was common knowledge at that time and can hardly be considered a miracle.

I mean not every word in the qura'an must have a scientific miracle in it.

True that. However, if they are presented as scientific miracles, you'd expect them to be more miraculous.

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_97.html

Allah is the light of the heavens and the Earth. The metaphor of His light is that of a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp inside a glass, the glass like a brilliant star, lit from a blessed tree, an olive, neither of the east nor of the west, its oil all but giving off light even if no fire touches it. Light upon light.

I'd find it more impressive if it actually said anything about quasars. 'Giving off light even if no fire touches it' is true for stars in general, not only quasars (On that note: Quasars aren't stars, quasar is short for quasi-stellar object. I wonder where they've got the description 'bright, stellar bodies' from on that site? ).
'Even if no fire touches it'. My first thought (given that it is preceeded by 'it's oil all') would have been that it means that there is no fire needed to lighten it (or anything else, for that matter), rather than that it burns without fire.
Stars not burning with fire seems obvious to me even without the use of any physic knowledge, but then again I know the answer beforehand.
But lets go with their definition. The verse says 'Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth'. Wouldn't you expect his light to be more 'holy' and less 'physical' than simple fire? No wonder that it needs no fire to shine.
Getting from light upon light to gravitational lens effect (which isn't exclusive to Quasars btw) wouldn't have been my first thought either.
The whole verse strikes me as having many possible meanings. And if google can be trusted, there are many interpretations:
http://www.adishakti.org/his_light_withi..._islam.htm
Thus, it doesn't seem particularly hard to find a scientific interpretation.

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_88.html

That one was about the sun and helium/Hydrogen, right? Link doesn't work right now.
Either way, it doesn't strike me as particularly special that it's the only Surah with every verse ending with those letters. I mean, you wouldn't expect that to happen in a lot of Surahs, would you? What seems more special is the Surahs number, 91, which supposedly is the number of elements without hydrogen (why without?) in nature.
However, there is no one true number of elements in nature. There are 118 known elements, 98 of those have been observed in nature. If you omit some which are highly unstable and exist only for a very short period of time, you can arrive somewhere between 88 and 98. Or 80 if you only count the stable ones. Now you still have the choice between all, all without hydrogen or all without hydrogen and helium. That are quite some possible surahs, of which just one has to have a possible connection to the sun or even elements... If it was surah 70-75/??-28, you could also make a connection to the amount of hydrogen/helium in the sun. Or you go by volume instead of mass which gives you other numbers still. Or you go by wordcount etc.

I'll look at the other examples you gave me, though I can't promise I'll have the time to write a text about them.

He challenged them to write a passage which is similar to it, but they couldn't. God even challenged them to write a verse similar to it, but still, a fail..... Some people even said that qura'an was a mixture of writing and magic, and that a human being can never write anything like that.

I'm curious, how does one determine whether a verse is similar to the quran or not?

[Kevin]

though, as a total atheist I don't believe in any form of afterlife, reincarnation, etc, that our consciousness is just a result of chemical reactions within our brains, and will therefore disappear as we die. Consciousness, anyway, is just one of the things that exists in the universe, it's nothing so special that we have to believe it comes from God or that it is even separate from our bodies. So, what I believe is that there is no 'souls' or whatever it is called, that is ever separated from our bodies, as they are caused by the reactions in our bodies.


So, like materials are made of atoms, so does our consciousness made out of highly complex combination of processes in our brain (and most likely not only the brain).


Of course it's just my belief since people has not been able to proof it by now. Probably still needs so many years ;p .


btw, now that I am Catholic, I know much about the Bible, and thus, I know a whole lot of ways to strongly argue that it is most likely to be false. However, I have never learned Islam (though 90% of Indonesians are moslims). I have never read, or be able to read, the Quran, thus I can't of course argue about it. And you see, I obviously have not enough reasons to spend too much time to learn another religion.


I am an atheist. If anyone can proof any ONE religion to be true, then I have to admit I am wrong to be an atheist. Well, if there is no proof, I can't help myself being an atheist, although I can't say I am true as well. Is there any good proof? I'm tired of searching on the internet since there are so many junks.. illogical statements. That's what I really want to hear now, in this thread? One proof and an explanation on how they can be accepted

[Boop]

I am an atheist. If anyone can proof any ONE religion to be true, then I have to admit I am wrong to be an atheist. Well, if there is no proof, I can't help myself being an atheist, although I can't say I am true as well. Is there any good proof? I'm tired of searching on the internet since there are so many junks.. illogical statements. That's what I really want to hear now, in this thread? One proof and an explanation on how they can be accepted

If there was undeniable proof then there would be no debates about such things. You won't find proof anywhere, especially not in this thread. Believe what is easiest for you to believe, you will live a happier life.

[A-Man]

@Silva: we are not gambling here... and I am not crazy to think that this site existed it self, also not mad to beleive that this world existed it self... Really don't wanna argue more about this.

@Reaper: I guess ur the only one here who is talking sense and replying to my posts carefully using ur brain. After reading the article about the starts burning itself, I wanted to tell u that the writer made a mistake. Yes, the stars burns without the need of a fire to lighten it.

Here is the miracle about the fly digeston link:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/fl...iracle.htm

And here are some miracles u god to read about (if u've got time ofcourse):
http://www.lf-empire.de/forum/thread-800...#pid153315
Especially the following parts:
Orbits
The Returning Sky
The Relativity of Time
The Seas not Mingling with One Another
The Word "Haman" in the Qur'an
The Qur'an is the Word of God

Also check out this link (if u r curious about truth):
http://mukto-mona.net/Articles/avijit/Quran_miracle.htm

[Kevin]

My conclusion so far.. is that everything's about point of view

On the internet (including the one you gave me) I can find so many proofs that Quran is true, and also, so many proofs that Quran is wrong (click here for an example).

If we want to make Quran true, we can say the wrong parts are just metaphors, or symbols, or something else. Instead, we can focus on the parts where the Quran agrees to the science up to now. (and luckily A-MAN has listed quite good parts which are scientifically proven later, in the post above).

But if we want the Quran to be wrong, we can deny the proofs by simply saying they are just coincidences, since, after all, only parts of the Quran agrees with science while the other parts are proven to be wrong (for instance, the 'writer' of Qur'an assumed that the world is flat, thus made many statements in many parts which are later proven wrong by science (click to see), and to note that the author of that article (not the Qur'an) has tried to prove otherwise but couldn't, and challenged everyone but no one could)

Thanks for your advice btw Lord Silva ;p

[LutiChris]

...if we could live only 70-90 years and only on this one earth. i believe after death, we have another incarnation. and not only as human and not only on this earth. as i said universe is infinite, and what about other dimensions, what about completely unknown spacetime? there must be something more...

This quote reminded me of my old idea i once had.

It's straying a bit from the current discussion but i wanted to share this idea i had (not a belief but just as an idea).

I thought that if we are sleeping and we enter our dream state, we lose contact with our surroundings and unconsciously make sense of this new world we see.

--wait---
Tl;dr: Our mind conjures up a dream >> you can think of that as the gateway/bridge/worm hole to another world >> another alternate universe.

Once our mind opens this world, it'll freely allow ourselves ("our souls") to enter but limit our ability to remain there due to the time or disruption in our world that will cause our spirit to pull back from that fantasy world into our so called "real world" (which could still just be another alternate universe that your soul is stuck in).

What does this have to do with Life after death? If our bodies no longer function we are no longer constrained and imprisoned from moving to the next world. Are actions aren't necessarily going to judge how we will live but maybe our unresolved guilt can cause nightmares and land us in a terrible one (once we die). And who knows, our soul could be transferred into a totally different body that of our own. But who would remember it? It certainly isn't the same brain or the same memory like the one from our previous life. You could have lived over 9000 times and still haven't known about it.

What do you guys think? (assuming your answer varies differently than Kevin's response [link])
I told Elias about it sometime ago and he thought i was on drugs
I assure you all i was not!

Anyways...
Since everyone love visuals, here's a little example i made for you guys to understand what i meant:
woops
that last part (when you're dead) is supposed to have the door closed. Cuz the idea is you're not supposed to enter back into your world.....
since you're dead after all
also here is yet another visual:
when your body dies in that alternate world your soul wanders to another