Atheism - ? I agree..

[Kevin]

I'm born in a Catholic family, and I have been educated Catholicly, however, I can't help doubting even the existence of God. :\

It started quite long ago, probably when I was at junior high school. I begin to change my views, I don't believe in the teachings or the bible. They simply say you must believe, because there's no evidence. Hmm... actually in my mind, I'm sure that we're just being fooled by people in the past, either deliberately or otherwise. Well, I am officially still Catholic, even though my mind is constantly shifting into being an atheist. That being said, being an atheist won't change my attitudes negatively. I know, I still love my friends and care about other people, simply because I'm human, not because I fear of God.

I used to be a religious person, willing to dig the knowledge in my religion. But I can't help getting negative conclusions that makes me doubt the truth even more.

Hmm, well, I want to hear others' opinions about this, but~! Be polite, respect others and read before posting so this won't become a stupid shouting competition

Coz... I don't know, should I bother to survive as a Christian or simply go out being an atheist and be free to set my own beliefs? :]

[Alblaka]

"The bible says, the human was created after god himself but is yet far from his divine level of comprehension and wisdom. This means, no human can possibly truly understand god motives. Yet you blindly follow a book written by a human, which, according to what I just mentioned, can't be possibly written by someone who actually understands gods will, effectively following the vision of the author, not god's one."
Simple logic can be awesome at times.

Not saying I don't believe in the existance of a higher being (which is, from my PoV, the only (current!) legit explanation for the initial creation of what later became the big bang), just not much into the bible ^^ Or Koran... or most other existing religions, for that case.

Staying true with your own self is the most important thing out there.
Though in this regard I really shouldn't be one to talk ^^' But regarding religion most people are sort of tolerant, no need to hide something like being an atheist... except on religious events like weddings and stuff, I suppose.

[mfc]

Believing in God doesn't make u lose anything. And think about it, think about all perfect nature and all universe... How did these all happen? Everything needs to have a reason. And putting the God as the mother-main-reason is logical enough for me.

[empirefantasy]

This remind me a thread called "do you believe in god", or sth like that, but as a searched it is deleted now.


to your question, go out being an atheist. The other option means you are lying and lying is something bad. So better don't consider yourself as cristian. And God don't like layers, especially when they are trying to look that they are religioner.

[mfc]

Spoiler (Click to View)

A. Cosmological Evidence
The first is the so-called Cosmological Argument. There are essentially three possibilities as to the origin of the universe and the implications about God:

1)That the universe emerged from nothing. Little needs to be said about this notion. Nothing produces nothing. This premise is neither logical nor reasonable.

2)That the universe is eternal. Among many scientific reasons why the universe is not eternal are: (a) the big bang theory, (b) the abundance of hydrogen, and (c) the irreversible decay of the universe.
The discovery by Edwin Hubble that the universe appears to be uniformly expanding in all directions leads to the conclusion that the universe had a beginning. The Big Bang theory is not merely a proposition that matter expanded from an infinitely small position. It is the proposition that the universe had an absolute beginning—that before this event not even space nor time even existed at all!
Hydrogen is continually being converted into helium through the process of nuclear fusion. This process is irreversible, so the abundance of hydrogen in the cosmos belies the notion of an eternal universe.
The second law of thermodynamics says that while the total amount of energy remains constant (the first law), the availability of usable energy in the universe is constantly declining (the second law). Apart from the intervention of a supernatural agent (God), the stars would have burned out and the universe would have run down like a clock with no one to wind it back up. The logical conclusion is that it cannot be true that an infinite amount of time has passed because the universe would have reached a cold and lifeless state of absolute equilibrium.

3)That the universe was created by an eternal being. By process of elimination, the existence of an omnipotent God is the most reasonable conclusion for origin.

And see this: >CLICK<

And also afterlife is another reason to believe in God(at least for me). What is going to happen us after death? All these injustice happend all the time should be judged as absolute judgement.

[dubbleD]

as a christian myself, it saddens me to hear this but who am i to tell you what to do?

its not my opinion that counts either but this is the fundamental message of christ and i found that everything starts at this point. you may not even believe this but this is what i'm sharing anyway. just a note, im taking stuff from the bible but im a bit lazy in finding where in the bible they are. i'm sure youd probably be familiar though.
the first people, adam and eve were tempted and sinned. that sin was pride: "you will learn about good and evil and you will be like god". from then on, people worshipped idols (i dont mean statues, but ultimate things in their life that are other than god) such as themselves, other people or things, etc. but god seeing the downfall of people created grace, which is technically unmerited favour, despite our sin. god loved us so much he made grace through forgiveness of sin, and the ultimate sacrifice which is jesus christ, son of god (at the same time god) whom died.
the most important thing to note was that it was done out of love, which is now my motivation in life. i love because god first loved me. so much so he decided to take the blame for all the wrong things i have done in my life. i think of it as this, jesus being the blameless person takes the blame for all and still says have mercy on the people who are killing me. its like you holding a gun to his face and him saying "dad forgive this person who is about to shoot me because he doesnt know what he is doing" to his dad, who is watching all this happening before his eyes.
how do i know this is true for me? by and indescribable peace "that transcends understanding". my own life i've experience some changes that are simply impossible by my own strength. there are times i just don't know how i got through. heck at one point ive even contemplated suicide.
but now there is something i feel inside me that is beyond what i can describe. it may probably sound far-fetched, and jesus has said, there will be people who will hear and not understand what this is all about.

i think i've written a fair bit...hope you don't mind

[Evil Sonidow]

If you're not feeling well by adopting the stance of non-practicer catholic, then you're probably better off admitting that, at least now, such beliefs aren't your own. Staying true to yourself should be always one top goal in your life. Before I start commenting, let my position be clear: I'm an atheist.

"The bible says, the human was created after god himself but is yet far from his divine level of comprehension and wisdom. This means, no human can possibly truly understand god motives. Yet you blindly follow a book written by a human, which, according to what I just mentioned, can't be possibly written by someone who actually understands gods will, effectively following the vision of the author, not god's one."
Simple logic can be awesome at times.

This simplifies so much that it's useless. You assume all are blind followers unquestioned, which is just plain wrong. The bible wasn't written to be taken literal (even if many do so), the metaphors aren't always direct and, of course, this causes confusions over time. However, bringing it down to the "you're all sheeps who accept anything thrown at them" is just as moronic.

Believing in God doesn't make u lose anything. And think about it, think about all perfect nature and all universe... How did these all happen? Everything needs to have a reason. And putting the God as the mother-main-reason is logical enough for me.

Not everything needs to have a reason. Also, he never said that he lost anything by believing in God. Key point here is that he doesn't completely and that is fading more over time. Argumenting that everything's "so perfect that it must have been created by something" is a shot at saying that this life isn't the only thing we have. It means we can and should aspire for more. It means that everything has an ultimate consequence, the bastard that did wrongs to you and didn't have anything come back at him will at some point, somewhere, somehow, leading to a clean conscience.

It's great to have something to fall back on when everything goes wrong, when life sucks, believing in whatever religion you decide on is a way of comforting, makes you feel warm inside. The world is a cold, dark place filled with morons and idiots, and with just as many nice and happy people, but it's hard to see things that way when your morale is down and can't see the light.

to your question, go out being an atheist. The other option means you are lying and lying is something bad. So better don't consider yourself as cristian. And God don't like layers, especially when they are trying to look that they are religioner.

I've already said that it's best to be true to yourself, but these arguments are flawed. Lying is not obligatorily bad, there are white lies which are compulsory since we live in society, dealing with other human beings the whole time. Saying that "God doesn't like liars" imply a punitive deity, which is not what most people believe in. Moreover, if you follow the bible, it's a old-testament God. It's important to remember the fact that, back then, chaos ran through the land and one form of control was to instill fear using the unknown and what you're powerless agaisnt. Holding that someone was watching your actions completely and aware of your mistakes, "evil" acts, was and still a means, albeit weaker, to keep things in order. Personally, I don't share this viewpoint. Everyone has moral compasses (some broken) and you know what's right or wrong (another fact that depends on culture, for instance). You're not a child; you don't need to be afraid of an entity constantly observing and berating some of your actions.

1)That the universe emerged from nothing. Little needs to be said about this notion. Nothing produces nothing. This premise is neither logical nor reasonable.

This is a clear sign of ignorance. It's not as simple as "emerged from nothing".

2)That the universe is eternal. Among many scientific reasons why the universe is not eternal are: (a) the big bang theory, (b) the abundance of hydrogen, and © the irreversible decay of the universe.
The discovery by Edwin Hubble that the universe appears to be uniformly expanding in all directions leads to the conclusion that the universe had a beginning. The Big Bang theory is not merely a proposition that matter expanded from an infinitely small position. It is the proposition that the universe had an absolute beginning—that before this event not even space nor time even existed at all!
Hydrogen is continually being converted into helium through the process of nuclear fusion. This process is irreversible, so the abundance of hydrogen in the cosmos belies the notion of an eternal universe.
The second law of thermodynamics says that while the total amount of energy remains constant (the first law), the availability of usable energy in the universe is constantly declining (the second law). Apart from the intervention of a supernatural agent (God), the stars would have burned out and the universe would have run down like a clock with no one to wind it back up. The logical conclusion is that it cannot be true that an infinite amount of time has passed because the universe would have reached a cold and lifeless state of absolute equilibrium.

Science never said the universe was eternal. Abundance does not imply endlessness, so it cannot "belie" the notion of an eternal universe. You should get your facts right: the second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy inside a system tends to increase over time (entropy is a measurement of chaos, sort of). This means that everything tends to go from a more ordered state to a more chaotic one, if left unattended. The best you can do is work to keep it as it is. The stars will burn out and the universe will run down like a clock with no one to wind it back up. Furthermore, it's never said that an infinite amount of time has passed because infinite is a very abstract concept and certainly doesn't apply here. Face the truth: the universe will reach a cold and lifeless state of absolute equilibrium and there's nothing you can do about it.

3)That the universe was created by an eternal being. By process of elimination, the existence of an omnipotent God is the most reasonable conclusion for origin.

By a flawed process, combined with seeing what you want to see, you arrive at a faulty conclusion, certainly not reasonable. Before the flaming starts, I'm not saying the belief that it was created by an eternal being is faulty, I'm saying the above reasoning is faulty and therefore invalid. If you actually believe in that, it doesn't have to be logical.

And also afterlife is another reason to believe in God(at least for me). What is going to happen us after death? All these injustice happend all the time should be judged as absolute judgement.

I've already touched this point about three quotes ago.

as a christian myself, it saddens me to hear this but who am i to tell you what to do?

It saddens me that it saddens you. As you phrased it, sounds like it's more important that he believes in the same as you do rather than enjoying a happier life with clear directions, even if they are not sharing the same beliefs. I also want to touch this point: God says we should love the next as we love ourselves, wouldn't that imply that you be joyful for him whatever it is?

the most important thing to note was that it was done out of love, which is now my motivation in life. i love because god first loved me. so much so he decided to take the blame for all the wrong things i have done in my life. i think of it as this, jesus being the blameless person takes the blame for all and still says have mercy on the people who are killing me. its like you holding a gun to his face and him saying "dad forgive this person who is about to shoot me because he doesnt know what he is doing" to his dad, who is watching all this happening before his eyes.
how do i know this is true for me? by and indescribable peace "that transcends understanding". my own life i've experience some changes that are simply impossible by my own strength. there are times i just don't know how i got through. heck at one point ive even contemplated suicide.
but now there is something i feel inside me that is beyond what i can describe. it may probably sound far-fetched, and jesus has said, there will be people who will hear and not understand what this is all about.

If God hadn't first loved you, say he required proof that you loved him first, your motivation would be gone? People aren't worth loving by themselves? Are we all miserable snakes deserving to rot and die? I'm forced to disagree. This also strikes me as putting one in a higher position: I love others because God loves me, despite their actions, thus I am superior. Sacrificing yourself doesn't make you better than most or all, it just counts as a step towards good change.
It's great that you feel this indescribable inner peace that transcends understanding. That's one of the best sides of religions: it provides, for the majority, a force to keep you struggling, moving through adversity, rising above obstacles. It doesn't really matter what powers your engines, as long as it keeps working, and religion does a good job in general with that. Not everyone has enough willpower and motivation on their on to continue and keep up the good fight.


Quite sure this is one of the longest posts I've ever written. Hope someone does read it entirely and carefully.

[dixon]

I wonder if those biblical people also teach Ezekiel 23:19-21 to their children.

[dubbleD]

yeah, had a thorough read through of everything. gonna need to for a sensitive topic like this. its like threading a needle sometimes because of how people will react to particular responses :S

i for one also have the train of thought that if you're only 'surviving', thats not gonna keep up forever the way it is. at a logical perspective, i'd figured that lots of people would deduce this already.

@sonidow
just to clarify my own perspective/position in case of misunderstanding from my first response (which there seem to be for me), heres what my position was. i'm only doing this so as to clear up any confusion or whatever potential crap that could happen (keep the thread from going to flame wars as well :S). gonna be as short as possible cos i needa sleep.
i totally agree about what youre saying that if god didnt first love and that we needed to prove it, it would make the whole message pointless. my background to my perspective is that, imagine if we were just too weak to even do something, someone has to help. i dont see it as superiority, and thats where i think the misunderstanding (my lack of explanation maybe) occurs. to me i see it as a reaction and and its more humbling instead. when i realise what an idiot i am and that i'm still loved by someone despite what i do. an honest, heartfelt and response is to love back because its just a natural response. thats pretty much where im coming from. hope this doesnt make things any more complicated :S

@dixon
lol. rather off topic

[Kevin]

If I can defend my arguments that my beliefs are useful, I won't ever think about being an atheist. But in fact, every argument that defends my beliefs always lose in one or two sentences. That sucks. I'm tired of losing. I want to switch sides, to the more logical one, actually. I wrote a few examples of how the arguments lose below. Well, if you can find any argument that is strong enough to hold on to the beliefs, that will be very influential.


Dixon's post isn't quite off topic.
He pointed out that not everything in the bible is good. In fact, you cannot find anything that a normal human, without the help of God, could not have written 2,000 years ago. It's just logical to point out that the bible is just another man-made fiction.


The bible even use knowledge from 2,000 years ago that is now scientifically proven wrong. For example, the creation of different species. Back then, people don't know about the theory of evolution, so that the story of the creation of the world was written that way. Today, it's proven wrong from many evidence (including fossils, for instance).


When one part of the bible is proven wrong, can we still believe the truth of the other parts? XD
Well, actually people has got one way to get out of it: rationalization

- when the bible says something wrong, then it must just be an illustration. e.g. God created the world in 6 days, it must be an illustration to an actually very long time span.
- when something good is going on, it must be the blessing of God
- but when something bad is happening, it must be a trial from the God

Apparently, with rationalization we can make everything seems correct.

The origin of universe is also a very weak argument, because the existence of God itself is just as impossible, and since he still has to create the universe after he impossibly appear, it's just more impossible than just the universe.

Actually, I'm glad to hear the facts that in some other countries it is okay to be an atheist. In my country, the first point in our official Phylosophical Foundation is "Belief in the one and only God" (from the Wikipedia, so translation should be good). Since that's number 1, that's the most important ._. . Belief in God. Over here, we all have to.