Atheism - ? I agree..

[A-Man]

Man, did u read my post? Cuz i thought i explained the proof by giving an example... If god existed then Islam exists. And all the scientific, historic....etc miracles in the qura'an proves that it wasn't written by human it was written by god.,, I am really tired of saying the same thing again and again..... I think u should seek the truth other than the comfortable route.. And islam doesn't deny the truth of the bigbang theory. Just ask ur self, who created that huge rock slab which exploded to form the universe?

[Reaper]

hmm about the Higgs_boson, as far as I understand (if I'm wrong, please state because I read everything quickly rather than carefully), even though it's called 'God Particle', actually it's another theory of how the universe was created, thus, instead, it disproves the existence of God since that certain particle is the substitute of the God Himself.

The Higgs-Boson isn't a particle that substitutes god or disproves him. It's supposedly the particle that explains why (some) other particles have (part of) their mass.

see this is not fair
self ignorant people believing in one religion is the cause of war
religion is unfair
this is all due to the belief of god, who is actually not present :/

Religions don't kill people, people with religions kill people. As well as people without religions btw.

Further more, holy books were sent to explain more...

And how do you decide which holy books speak the truth and which don't? I'm not referring to christianity and islam only here.

But if we ask "if someone else really programmed the data changer, who programmed someone else? and where in this hard disk does he live??". and then we pick the right answer as "well then someone else probably doesn't exist" this is all wrong, because someone else got nothing like the program. His world is different. And this goes same with god.

To ask 'who programmed someone else' is indeed a bad question. To ask 'how can there be a someone else who programmed this data changer' isn't. As I said, to me it's just shifting the point from where on we can't understand. Either we don't understand how there can be a universe emerging from nothing or we can't understand how there can be a god.
Note that the conclusion isn't that god doesn't exist. But it also isn't that god does exist.

If I list the proves that god exists, i would fill this whole page with text. U too meet me in IRC of ur interested.

I guess you are reffering to those (among others maybe)? http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/index.php

THE IDENTITY IN THE FINGERPRINT: "Yes, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers. (Qur'an, 75:4)"
Keeping aside for a moment that the quote doesn't say anything about using them for identification, the claim that the uniqueness was only discovered in the 19th century is false. Fingerprints were used as a signature in the ancient babylon already, as well as China.

Creation from clay:

When the human body is examined today, it may be discovered that many elements present on the earth are also to be found in the body.

No surprise. Which elements would our bodies be build of, if not those present on the earth? We'e got to get them from somewhere.

Mathematical Miracles: Site doesn't work right now. However, for anything supposedly encoded in the Quuran, read this:
http://www.awitness.org/essays/bibcode.html
It's about the bible, but can just as well be applied.
If those miracles are about some complex mathematical patterns, look at the Divine Comedy for example. The math in that one is pretty funky.

THE PERFECT EQUILIBRIUM IN THE UNIVERSE: No collisions between galaxies? The hell. Galaxies collide time and time again, but one collision can take millions and millions of years. But there is so much space between stars that those only collide very rarely. It does happen though.

Sun and Moon orbiting(in the video): No one knew about orbits 1400 years ago? Where did they get that. What's with Ptolemy and other greek astronomers?

THE END OF THE UNIVERSE AND THE BIG CRUNCH: Scientists aren't even sure whether that will happen or not.

Duality:

Glory be to Him Who created all the pairs: from what the earth produces and from themselves and from things unknown to them.

Duality is a really old concept and if you assume that whoever talks about duality means antimatter and stuff like that, then pretty much every civilization had better scientists than we have.

Spherical Earth: Again, already known by the greek 300 before christ. In fact, the knowledge about this in the islamic world came from the greeks.

... I don't really have the time to look at them one by one. If you've got anything which you think is particularly bullet-proof, I'd like to hear that one.

UFO and aliens.

Over 90% of UFO sightings are actually caused by the Venus. Also:
http://xkcd.com/718/

well, let's start with the theory of universe creation. the big bang theory beat some decades ago another theory which i don't remember. But still it is not 100% sure.

That's science. Theories can't be proven, only disproven, that's why they are theories. But you can make predictions and conduct experiments to see if reality matches those predictions. And if all your experiments point towards the theory working, chances are high there's some truth in it.

Unknown things about some things, example: Experiment of Florida.

Care to explain? Google seems to know several experiments of florida.

The origin of all creatures in earth. Darvin theory don't have proofs.

See above.

[Whaat]

The origin of all creatures in earth. Darvin theory don't have proofs.

Is this really a good argument? There's as much proofs of god's existence as there is about evolution theory.
Also if you start saying ''Darvin's theory is just a theory'', then so is gravity, and i don't see people flying DD

[Marko pro]

perhaps most of those scientists are atheists then?

with passing of years scientist are more and more atheist. I cant remember the link.

The natural phenomena are explainable by scientics.

nope, only some of them. While those which are explained, has been great brain of scientists. Anyways they wouldnt be that smart if god didnt wanted them that smart.

If you can't explain them, it doesn't mean that they cannot be explained. Give us one example you think that cannot be explained even with science.

well, let's start with the theory of universe creation. the big bang theory beat some decades ago another theory which i don't remember. But still it is not 100% sure.

Ghost, spirits experiences close to the death and much more paranormal things are not explained.

UFO and aliens.

Unknown things about some things, example: Experiment of Florida. EDIT: @v i am talking for all of them.

The origin of all creatures in earth. Darvin theory don't have proofs.

A lot of disappeared civilizations.

After death.

How huge is the space?

Day by day we are smarter-lol bad eng...

A correction here, we are having more knowledge.
[/quote]

How you can know what will happened for 1000 years???
What we will know???
.....-----.....----.....----.....-----........
I belive in God!!! for everyone who thought opposite because my bad eng

I can't explain you some stuff on English.. my text have lot of mistakes which i dont know how to wrote in eng....
I can explain you on crotian but you wouldnt understand me-than you would understand my opinion

[Silverthorn]

If you're trying to explain religion with science, you'll quickly run into troubles. Why? Because science enlarges its horizon each day. Let's take a sneak-peak at how things (especially in regard to physics) evolved:

Science stuff (Click to View)

Somewhere before the invention of fire - people notice that when you place one rock to another rock, you have two rocks. Awesome!
Ancient Egypt - lever principle discovered. Doubtful that it was actually quantified, but they saw how things worked and built upon that.
Ancient Greece - Basic mathemathical foundations to describe geometry (Pythagoras, Euklid, Thales, Archimedes, etc) and basic mechanics
*leap into the modern age*
1500-1700: Classical mechanics, developed by people such as Newton, Galilei -- usually the stuff that's taught at school nowadays
1700-1900: Electrodynamics: this magical thing that causes lightning, explains how radios work, etc. Faraday, Lorentz, Maxwell. Only parts of it are covered in school.
around 1900:
- Theory of Relativity. What's that? If you accelerate a particle to very high speeds, strange things start to happen. Newton didn't foresee that! But everybody thought that it'd be sufficient to solve anything in mechanics! Did he lie to us then? No, he just couldn't imagine a situation like this to happen (frankly, have you ever tried to throw an apple with the speed of 300,000 km/s? If you manage to do that, you deserve the nobel prize).
- Quantum Physics. What's that? If you look at really small stuff of the magnitude of an atom, things don't behave like they're supposed to! Maxwell lied to us! Well, no, stuff like electrons just follow statistics... and Maxwell didn't know about that. If you manage to define the place of an electron at any given time, you'll definitely get the nobel prize as well, btw.
- around 1960: particle physics. Really strange stuff, have a really small proton which you fill with even smaller things called "quarks". A proton consists of 2 up- and 1 down-quark which is already strange; but there are also really funny particles like neutrinos which go through our bodies like a bullet through a soap-bubble. Do you feel it tickle? No? Good, then you're still sane. But really, they pretty much don't interact with anything, so detecting them is hard. Really hard. The LHC at CERN is built to check for particles such as Z-bosons, W-bosons, gluons, muon, whateveron. And the Higgs-Boson. If you don't plan on doing your PhD-thesis in particle-physics, you'll probably never really understand how they work (I know roughly what they mean, which I consider 1 of my greatest 1000 achievements in my life ). Anyways, a Higgs-Boson creates a field (similar to a charged object creates an electric field which makes your hair stand up) which, when it interacts with other particles, gives them a mass. Theoretical physics, weird stuff. They say that, when there is no Higgs-Boson, there cannot be mass. Did anybody in the gazillion years before care about it? No, not really. If it wasn't so greatly on the news that, supposedly, the Higgs-Boson has been discovered, you wouldn't probably know about its existence.

With that in the back of our heads, this just shows how mankind has known more and more over the ages. Zeus, the god of lightning, was the explanation for the Greeks how those miraculous flashes come into existence. They just didn't know about the existence of electricity. Amun, the Egypt god of wind, can be nowadays explained by any physics-college-student. Coriolis-force and stuff. The Egypts didn't know about that stuff either.

Higgs-Boson, this "God particle" is just named like that by somebody who searched for a cooler name. You wouldn't call an electron the "Archangel particle" either, just because I said so, right? Either way, the Higgs-Boson only has this name because it is/was about as hard to find as God. Nothing else.

For commoners a couple centuries back in time, it was certainly easier to believe in God than it is today. More and more stuff gets explained and you have to dig really deep to find unsolved mysteries. There are these awesome theories about quantum-foam, strings, branes, etc; if you have nothing to do, take a look at those. That is, if you want to fry your brain if you want to understand what they're actually talking about. Do those branes exist? "God knows".

What if we actually live in a 4-dimensional hyperspace but yet are only able to realize 3 dimensions. Think of it as if you're a flat shadow. You wouldn't know how to jump because this is completely over your mind. Now, what if there was, in the n-th dimension, an omnipotent being that can see us but we can't see nor detect it? We just don't know because this is beyond measurement.

I don't really mind believers, nor atheists. As long as they keep it to themselves, I am perfectly fine with it; but when they are trying to convince me about why their world-view is superior than mine, they can go look for a different place.

There are so many interpretations to holy documents, Bible, Quran, Torah, Sutras, you name it, that it's crazy. This explains the different branches of each religion. Technically, one religion has the same base but people interpret different stuff into the sentences. They're written in a way which allows people to do that. Examples?

God made decrees for the rain. And He set a way for the lightning of the thunder

2000 years ago, nobody knew why it rained or why a tower was struck by a flash. Anybody saying something different in that time was a heretic.
Nowadays, one can say that weather abides the chaos-theory and can make estimations. But how does the chaos-theory know what is chaos? Is it God's work? Or does it rely on hard conditions that are deterministic. You'll, inevitably, get into quantum-mechanics again where everything is based on chaos and statistics. Who controls the chaos? We don't know.

[We] then formed the drop into a clot and formed the clot into a lump and formed the lump into bones and clothed the bones in flesh; and then brought him into being as another creature.

Yes, by the time of writing, there was no way to tell what happens inside a mother's womb. But the way it's described, isn't this just the reverse process of decomposition? An alive creature passes away; firstly, it loses its flesh due to decay, leaving only the bones. Later on, the bones will erode away, too, until there is nothing left. And that was already well-observed in that age.


Believe in what you think is right. I don't want to push anybody into anything; ultimately, it's your decision what you're striving for.


Cookies for the ones that actually bothered reading this

[A-Man]

1- And how do you decide which holy books speak the truth and which don't? I'm not referring to christianity and islam only here.
Islam said that the other older books where created by god, but then edited by people to serve their needs. So a book edited by people isn't really accepted as a religion book.

2- Either we don't understand how there can be a universe emerging from nothing or we can't understand how there can be a god.
Not understanding how there can be a universe emerging from nothing, because there must be some creator behind it as I said be4.


3- THE IDENTITY IN THE FINGERPRINT: "Yes, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers. (Qur'an, 75:4)"
Keeping aside for a moment that the quote doesn't say anything about using them for identification, the claim that the uniqueness was only discovered in the 19th century is false. Fingerprints were used as a signature in the ancient babylon already, as well as China.
Creation from clay:

When the human body is examined today, it may be discovered that many elements present on the earth are also to be found in the body.

No surprise. Which elements would our bodies be build of, if not those present on the earth? We'e got to get them from somewhere.

They were true in the end....so, true


4- Sun and Moon orbiting(in the video): No one knew about orbits 1400 years ago? Where did they get that. What's with Ptolemy and other greek astronomers?
This shows that it wasn't written by a human being. And this was also written in the qura'an not only in the video.

5- THE END OF THE UNIVERSE AND THE BIG CRUNCH: Scientists aren't even sure whether that will happen or not.
Its gonna happen like the others did...

6- Duality:

Glory be to Him Who created all the pairs: from what the earth produces and from themselves and from things unknown to them.

Duality is a really old concept and if you assume that whoever talks about duality means antimatter and stuff like that, then pretty much every civilization had better scientists than we have.
So true and qura'an approved that.

7- Spherical Earth: Again, already known by the greek 300 before christ. In fact, the knowledge about this in the islamic world came from the greek.
So quraan told the truth here either. I mean not every word in the qura'an must have a scientific miracle in it. It also had well known things at that time. Like the affect of alcohol for example (drunkenness)

8- ... I don't really have the time to look at them one by one. If you've got anything which you think is particularly bullet-proof, I'd like to hear that one.
What about the decreasing in oxygen rate when we ascend in the sky?
What about the fact that a fly, once it eats a thing, it changes it into another different matter?
...etc
others:
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_97.html
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_88.html
I am really getting tired of explaining again and again....

Edit: Bp: about the human being formation, u actually only wrote the processes at the end of the article. There are still other things be4 in the text, which human beings had no clue about be4 1400 years.

[Apocalipsis]

I don't really mind believers, nor atheists. As long as they keep it to themselves, I am perfectly fine with it; but when they are trying to convince me about why their world-view is superior than mine, they can go look for a different place.

Quoted for truth.

I am really getting tired of explaining again and again....

Do you realize that you are not explaining anything at all?
You say that everything in the Quran is truth, because it wasn't edited by humans. Then after considering it's right in essence, you "explain" everything with its words.
But you didn't (and can't) prove that it wasn't edited by humans. How do you know that Muhammad didn't write whatever he wanted to write?
And don't use the argument that it contains propethic and completely innovative knowledge, apart from the fact that it's not an absolute proof, Reaper already gave numerous examples of how to counter it.

[Kashif]

first thing muhammad (S.A.W)
didnt edited quran because editing quran is a very big sin

[Apocalipsis]

didnt edited quran because editing quran is a very big sin

Let me guess... it says so in the Quran?

[Kashif]

it is told in islam

this is written in quran not the exact way

And IF he (the Messenger) WERE to invent(forge) any quotes in Our name(44),
Surely We would have seized him by his right hand (45),
And would have surely cut off the artery of his heart (46).