[C] Walker - 2.08

[支倉凍砂]

I must have described what I meant poorly.

I think it could work as his 4th and final ground move (pp/pd/pg and this .. phantom shield?).
Also I just reread your description and now I don't actually see why the rebound would be a problem.
If it starts out as an inactive energy veil waiting for a projectile to hit before it starts moving forward as a shield I don't see why it should be 'reboundable' at all. If it gets hit by a character it should just shatter and disappear.

The "(rebound)" I wrote meant I used frame 30 to do that.

To make it more clear:
1. Walker creates a projectile in front of him.
2. It is destroyed if it is rebounded (frame 30), ex. opponent punches it. If it is hit by something else (frame 20), it goes to "active mode".
3. In active mode it slowly moves forward for about 5 seconds, with itr kind 14 and effect 4. If it gets hit the timer restarts.
4. However as it has changed team, opponent projectile attacks will be bounced back but will only damage Walker's team. And Walker's teams projectile will also be bounced back and hurt Walker's team.

Why would he need a weapon to run? And why would SK become too powerful with running?

I meant the opposite in both cases.
I think maybe a character with weapon works better with the "hop" Walker now uses.
With the bad air-to-ground hitbox of SK I thought it will hardly be used if I remove the hop. However, then I realized it might be fine as you now instead have run dash from which you can use it.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[YinYin]

1. Walker creates a projectile in front of him.
2. It is destroyed if it is rebounded (frame 30), ex. opponent punches it. If it is hit by something else (frame 20), it goes to "active mode".
3. In active mode it slowly moves forward for about 5 seconds, with itr kind 14 and effect 4. If it gets hit the timer restarts.
4. However as it has changed team, opponent projectile attacks will be bounced back but will only damage Walker's team. And Walker's teams projectile will also be bounced back and hurt Walker's team.

You won't have this problem if you use frame 10 (hitting) instead of frame 20 (hit) as this won't result in a team change. But I guess this is not much of an option as it would again also hit characters.
Either way the drop object method is still there to skip the team change.

I think maybe a character with weapon works better with the "hop" Walker now uses.
With the bad air-to-ground hitbox of SK I thought it will hardly be used if I remove the hop. However, then I realized it might be fine as you now instead have run dash from which you can use it.

In that case he needs to run in the next release.

[支倉凍砂]

You won't have this problem if you use frame 10 (hitting) instead of frame 20 (hit) as this won't result in a team change. But I guess this is not much of an option as it would again also hit characters.
Either way the drop object method is still there to skip the team change.

I'm not too sure how projectiles work. When I was testing around it was frame 20 it went to when it was hit while "inactive" and frame 10 when it was "active", so I just went along with that.

In that case he needs to run in the next release.

Have you tried playing stage mode with 7 computer Walkers?
I'll miss the bunny hopping when an stage end. T_T

[MoragWan]

Nice char love him.
But i still dont understand how to do all his attacks
I onley know how to throw on ground a player or to give him punching up..
very tricky data you used

[支倉凍砂]

Hello everyone!

It has been almost 9 months since I made any posts here, and what can I say.
Caught up in everyday life trying to get a job, which I finally did a couple of weeks ago!
Now I'm brimming with energy for LF2 again, so I hope you still are interested in Walker.

I looked back at some comments and PMs, and decided to go nuts.
As I was considering earlier I have now switched back Walker to normal running, so no more bunny hopping.
Also I have now allowed Walker to cancel his dash into his air specials as he could do that from his hop.

I also skipped the anti-projectile move, I think it would fit some other kind of character better.

Other major changes include:

• Phantom Dash: has change from being a command dash with a punch follow-up to be a dashing throw instead. Just to test I'm using Louis throw animation (with wall bounce). I think this works much better than the old move where you had to time the follow-up attack with little visual clues.
  
• Phantom Punch: as PD (or Phantom Catch now?) has changed to not have this as follow-up this is now a standalone move (as suggested by comments). As it is now much easier to use and still cause quite much damage due to JD+A it costs 25mp (I think it was 10+10 before).
  
• Phantom Guard2: I added a second experimental counterattack, and right now it counters the same things for the same time. On successful counter it deals massive damage though in a flashy(?) way.
  
• Phantom Kick: after making the divekick for Phantom Guard2 I asked myself "how would it be if it was a standalone move?" and this is the result. The animation is poor and I believe the move is way too strong as it disrupts your opponents play very much, though it is quite satisfying when you get those five hits in.
  
• :
  

My concerns right now:

• Phantom Punch and the loss of air combos: Before you could do Super A >　Phantom Dash > Phantom Punch to air combo, but with the changes to Phantom Dash/Catch, now I think there will be less opportunity for those old air combos. Because of this, I pondering whether the Jump Punch (JD+A) should go, as it severly limited in use now, and makes Phantom Punch give much more damage then maybe it should (which is why I upped the cost).
  
  
• Phantom Guard2: is just a stronger version of Phantom Guard. Can one make it more interesting? Just changing the start-up and active time for the move I feel isn't really it. A move more fitted for crowd control maybe (like the original move Stampede)? Or something to counter projectiles like making Walker teleport behind the opponent on successful counter (to combat his lack of range)? I am all ears for suggestions!
  
  
• Phantom Kick: I think the move aside from looking awful right now, probably is broken. (I was sad to find out that the teleporting state doesn't track your opponent's height) Your opponent cannot really pick up a heavy item with out being punished. While it is only 10 damage for that, if you time it with your opponents jump you can get some more hits and damage in. Is this move interesting at all? One could make it a follow-up move for each of the other moves (so that you cannot use it alone and adjust the trajectory for each move)? Or should it just die?
  
  
• Lack of variation: Super A and Run A uses same animation, Jump A and Dash A uses same animation. While this is mostly because the sprites are only half-done due to me going icognito for a year or two, does anyone have any suggestion for changing this (for future sprites)? I guess more moves that launches opponent for air combos would be interesting?
  

Download Link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/iejivlvbzqsv4z....04%5D.rar

Thank you guys for all your comments, help and most of all patience.
I'll try to stay more active from now on!

[Alapottra]

looks good but your 2nd mediafire said Invalid or Deleted File. but 1st one works....downloading

[支倉凍砂]

looks good but your 2nd mediafire said Invalid or Deleted File. but 1st one works....downloading

I have switched over to Dropbox for all my releases.
You will find links to all 2.00 or later versions in the first post under Version History.
I recreated a link to 1.03 as you seen to be interested in older verions as well.

Wow. I'm stunned, that you're still working over this. Good luck then! I don't rly have an opportunity to test it.

I hope that you can find the time to finish the sprites whenever I have figured out what I actually want! : D

[YinYin]

I may be repeating previous suggestions, but I'm too lazy to double check.

Phantom Dash
I think the catching dash frame could travel much faster and last less long. More like Bats speed punch. Unless you ditch the speedy looking frame for a run animation similar to Louis' catch. It is also rather hard to get a useful wall bounce with this, if any at all.
Phantom Punch
You might want to stay inside the rising fist frame longer before going into the jump frame (until the very top of the arch). Else the animation looks really weird if you don't do anything in the air. Just give it the same state and hit_ links as the jump frame to enable the combos.
Phantom Guard2
I gotta admit I don't like heavily pre scripted combos like this one. Although having an up and down version of the phantom guard is a good idea (like Johns heal and Woodys teleport).
Phantom Kick
Only the sudden teleport without any sound or animation to back it up breaks this. Visually the sudden movement with little regard to inertia doesn't feel right and for the game play you should at least limit the teleporting range.
Phantom Punch and the loss of air combos
I don't see why the previous combos should not be possible any more. Adjust all the itrs and throws and you should be able to reconnect a lot of things. Also don't drop the jump punching. I really like that part.
Phantom Guard2
To begin with you could try changing both your counters from being an extra character file to this: http://www.lf-empire.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=9084
It's much more fair for the attacker, as he can get past it with a strong hit. You have more options for it (front and back action). And it's less clutter inside the character selection and data.txt.
I think it would be best for both of them to essentially be the same, with a situational twist (like John/Woody mentioned above). DvJ is the quick option that dispatches the opponent fast and reliably (no flipping), while D^J is a combo starter. This difference is enough for me (considering they are one and the same move, but using a different option).
If you do make the change to the cpoint counter, here is what I would also change:
Make the counter stance itself much longer, maybe infinite with the option to move out of it at any time. And use something that looks more 'ready' than 'I'm dizzy'. Here is an edit of the drinking frames that could do:
This thing would have the advantage of being easier to use (timing doesn't have to be as accurate, you can cancel any time, it could work for front and back hits) and the disadvantage of not countering stronger attacks.
Phantom Kick
It could work as a pure follow up, but even then you need to limit the teleport range. Otherwise you may still just start a different move first, simply to get to this one and teleport all over the background. I still wonder why you don't have this aerial downwards kick on J+DvA and the upwards one on J+D^A instead of inverting these directions and replacing one with a rather unfitting aerial arm swing.
Lack of variation
The super attack would be much better off with an uppercut (D^A) that doesn't make Walker jump (stays on the ground with a raised fist).
Either jump or dash attack could use the animation you currently use for J+D^A. This would be all the variation you need on the basics without requiring any new sprites.

General
The character still has quite a few jerky motions with misaligned sprites. The defense frame for instance isn't centered correctly (feet shift around if you press D+><><><...). There are also quite a few swing sounds for attacks missing, making the punches that do have a sound stand out in a weird way.

edit: went through the thread again and I still like this as his run attack:

Also should you ever consider making him run again I would really love to see this as his run attack:

Similar to Woodys, except you would need to continue a combo after the second hit as the last one knocks down.

[支倉凍砂]

I may be repeating previous suggestions, but I'm too lazy to double check.

I'm just glad you are still giving well thought-out responses after all these years! : D

Phantom Dash
I think the catching dash frame could travel much faster and last less long. More like Bats speed punch. Unless you ditch the speedy looking frame for a run animation similar to Louis' catch. It is also rather hard to get a useful wall bounce with this, if any at all.

Roger, I'll speed it up!

I'm not really sure it is possible to make a useful wall bounce of this attack. As the opponent is thrown, you will get hit so he would need an attack that extends his hitbox well outside his hurtbox, and I'm not really sure how I would do that to an unarmed character.
Then again, I'm just reusing the same bounce effect as for SK, so maybe one could tweak a more fitting motion for PD/PC.

The biggest reason I added wall bounce was because you said "add wall bounce to everything" a couple of pages ago. : p

Phantom Punch
You might want to stay inside the rising fist frame longer before going into the jump frame (until the very top of the arch). Else the animation looks really weird if you don't do anything in the air. Just give it the same state and hit_ links as the jump frame to enable the combos.

I agree it looks rather bad. So I should do a makeshift aerial sprite of the punch, and in the last frame(s) give it the same data as #212 so that it both goes to JP and JK, am I getting it right?
I'll certainly make a go at it.

Phantom Guard2
I gotta admit I don't like heavily pre scripted combos like this one. Although having an up and down version of the phantom guard is a good idea (like Johns heal and Woodys teleport).

Phantom Guard2
To begin with you could try changing both your counters from being an extra character file to this: http://www.lf-empire.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=9084
It's much more fair for the attacker, as he can get past it with a strong hit. You have more options for it (front and back action). And it's less clutter inside the character selection and data.txt.
I think it would be best for both of them to essentially be the same, with a situational twist (like John/Woody mentioned above). DvJ is the quick option that dispatches the opponent fast and reliably (no flipping), while D^J is a combo starter. This difference is enough for me (considering they are one and the same move, but using a different option).
If you do make the change to the cpoint counter, here is what I would also change:
Make the counter stance itself much longer, maybe infinite with the option to move out of it at any time. And use something that looks more 'ready' than 'I'm dizzy'. Here is an edit of the drinking frames that could do:
This thing would have the advantage of being easier to use (timing doesn't have to be as accurate, you can cancel any time, it could work for front and back hits) and the disadvantage of not countering stronger attacks.

Wow, stuff has happened in the DC world since my last visit.
How strong is a "stronger attack"? Are we talking fall-values?

The one thing I'm concerned about using this new tecnique for is speed. For some reason state 8000 loads the new character and skips 1F of time in the same frame, so the current counterattacks have instant start-up which I do like.
You can't creates objects in a command frame, so that will cause 1F lag. And objects can't activate their itrs the first 1F they're out either, right? Wouldn't this cause the counterattacks to have a start-up of 3F at best?
If this is the case, I would rather keep the current D↓J as it is, as it is just a tool to get out of a pressured situation and those 2F can really make a difference.

Though, the cluttering in the character select is a valid concern, so I'll be considering it for sure.

As you might have noticed I'm heavily influenced by regular 1-on-1 2D fighters, which is why for me having limited active frames and then having recovery frames for the opponent to punish makes sense. Then again, now I'm not sure what you are meaning by "strong attacks", so it might not be so bad anyhow.

Phantom Kick
Only the sudden teleport without any sound or animation to back it up breaks this. Visually the sudden movement with little regard to inertia doesn't feel right and for the game play you should at least limit the teleporting range.

Phantom Kick
It could work as a pure follow up, but even then you need to limit the teleport range. Otherwise you may still just start a different move first, simply to get to this one and teleport all over the background. I still wonder why you don't have this aerial downwards kick on J+DvA and the upwards one on J+D^A instead of inverting these directions and replacing one with a rather unfitting aerial arm swing.

Do you mean limit the teleporting range as in making it not using the teleporting-state, or is there in fact a way to alter how the teleporting-state works? Do you even think it is an interesting idea?
As I mentioned earlier, maybe making it a follow-up move for each other move, you could fine tune the "homing" action for each move getting rid of the teleporting. Then again, should the move even be there?

I don't know but inverse up and down for the air moves feel natural to me. But maybe that's just me.
It's kind of how Deep has his "up-attack" at down. (Deep is probably the character I've played the most)
I could flip the commands though, it does make more sense when you think about it.

Do you dislike the arm-animation because it is my poor reusing of sprites, or do you just think it is unfitting at all?
This again is "ripped" move, this is kind of the look I was hoping for:


Though, I hadn't even considered putting the multi-hit-kick there, that might be interesting.

Phantom Punch and the loss of air combos
I don't see why the previous combos should not be possible any more. Adjust all the itrs and throws and you should be able to reconnect a lot of things. Also don't drop the jump punching. I really like that part.

You are okay with a really high "bouncing" super/run punch?

Lack of variation
The super attack would be much better off with an uppercut (D^A) that doesn't make Walker jump (stays on the ground with a raised fist).
Either jump or dash attack could use the animation you currently use for J+D^A. This would be all the variation you need on the basics without requiring any new sprites.

Hmhm, noted and will try it out! : D

General
The character still has quite a few jerky motions with misaligned sprites. The defense frame for instance isn't centered correctly (feet shift around if you press D+><><><...). There are also quite a few swing sounds for attacks missing, making the punches that do have a sound stand out in a weird way.

I'm really not prioritizing picture alignment (just grab a weapon) and sounds right now. Any work that goes into that might be gone tomorrow (though I'll try to fix the stuff that is certain to be there, such as defending animation).


Thank you, YinYin, for you continuous input over all this time!


.edit// By the way, regarding the second counterattack: whatabout remaking that special move the original Walker had called stampede, where he grabs the opponent as a meatshield and keeps running forward. I guess it would help when Walker needs to fight multiple characters?

[YinYin]

So I should do a makeshift aerial sprite of the punch, and in the last frame(s) give it the same data as #212 so that it both goes to JP and JK, am I getting it right?
I'll certainly make a go at it.

Well the already existing aerial uppercut frame would do. Then again the whole animation could be cut and pasted into something better fitting for a rising fist. I could do that for you.

How strong is a "stronger attack"? Are we talking fall-values?

Yes, fall values. Reasonable in my opinion.

The one thing I'm concerned about using this new tecnique for is speed. For some reason state 8000 loads the new character and skips 1F of time in the same frame, so the current counterattacks have instant start-up which I do like.
You can't creates objects in a command frame, so that will cause 1F lag. And objects can't activate their itrs the first 1F they're out either, right? Wouldn't this cause the counterattacks to have a start-up of 3F at best?
If this is the case, I would rather keep the current D↓J as it is, as it is just a tool to get out of a pressured situation and those 2F can really make a difference.

Phew, not sure about the speed. To me it seems pretty fast and catches/activates hurtacts right on the frame that opoints. But I wouldn't give the starting frames any bdys apart from the one to be caught anyway, so it would still work as instantly as any other counter.

Do you mean limit the teleporting range as in making it not using the teleporting-state, or is there in fact a way to alter how the teleporting-state works? Do you even think it is an interesting idea?
As I mentioned earlier, maybe making it a follow-up move for each other move, you could fine tune the "homing" action for each move getting rid of the teleporting. Then again, should the move even be there?

I limit teleports by checking for a nearby character with a kind 8 itr first. This can of course still be abused if you have a team mate close by, but it's an option. Otherwise fine tuning it as a follow up is the preferred option. In general the move could be okay if he had other teleporting features too. If it's his only teleport, then it's too cheap in my opinion. Mostly because combining a teleport with an attack by default feels unfair and disorienting. If you let him perform an actual spinny jump to the position instead of teleporting that'd look better.

I don't know but inverse up and down for the air moves feel natural to me. But maybe that's just me.
It's kind of how Deep has his "up-attack" at down. (Deep is probably the character I've played the most)
I could flip the commands though, it does make more sense when you think about it.

Deep works that way because his body motion is in that direction, he crouches down and uses the ground to support the heavy upwards sword swings. He does not push his body weight up. Aerial moves have no support other than the target, which you might as well miss. So naturally the initial motion is usually towards the target. Woodys D^A for example may have the same effect as Deeps DvA, but his motion is more swift/upwards than ground based. (This whole things is also currently the problem with Walkers D^A visuals. The punch is ground based up to the point where his feet still touch the ground. The legs are stretched, the arm is on it's way to swing up onto his shoulder. Then instead of recovering from that swing his glued feed suddenly leave the ground and he flies up.)

Do you dislike the arm-animation because it is my poor reusing of sprites, or do you just think it is unfitting at all?
This again is "ripped" move, this is kind of the look I was hoping for

I guess because it's a poor reuse. The kick animation simply has the required pop to it and you already do have an up and down version of it, making the dull arm swing look unexpected. Also to me that animation looks like a kick too ...

You are okay with a really high "bouncing" super/run punch?

I gotta admit I would prefer the run attack combo I posted earlier. No knock out until the last hit, and you can simply do a different move after the second. That way you can make this punch knock down. And for a high hit the super punch could get the non rising uppercut.

.edit// By the way, regarding the second counterattack: whatabout remaking that special move the original Walker had called stampede, where he grabs the opponent as a meatshield and keeps running forward. I guess it would help when Walker needs to fight multiple characters?

How about adding this feature to the phantom dash and making the Louis throw the ending to it.