Another problem

[Dragon5]

Okay, so bug 24 3 here is rather interesting to look into. I know how to fix it, but I want to make a workaround that will allow special moves while running while not causing the weird dashing/rolling. I already tried to make a frame before rolling for the moves to be registered but that doesn't seem to work for every input. Any suggestions?
If it's impossible, I'll just remove the ability altogether.

[YinYin]

How do you fix it?
I consider this an unintentional yet awesome feature.

[Dragon5]

I really meant bug 3, but I couldn't find it while I was at college. I just said 24 since it was similar.

Anyway: To fix it, you remove all special inputs (or at least side-directional ones) in running and rolling frames. It is an interesting bug, and I feel this would help add depth LF2. I really like the thought of characters being able to do moves out of running.
The movement quirks are what I'm trying to work around. I tried doing a 1-TU frame before rolling with the special moves on it and that doesn't register as well as I hope. I copied Woody's crouch to which some moves worked, but not all. I'm trying to a way to mess with the data to allow the just the special moves. Any ideas?

[STM1993]

Unfortunately I don't think there's a DC solution to fix the direction change in 24/25. The character will always turn before the game checks whether he has mana to use the move or not. Also, I cannot reproduce the dash bug 25 if I'm not player 1.

I've thought of using negative next to flip the character around, but I think that'd just mess things up while leaving the bug there with inverted controls.

[YinYin]

I really meant bug 3 [...] It is an interesting bug, and I feel this would help add depth LF2. I really like the thought of characters being able to do moves out of running.

That one is an intended feature in my opinion. Simply because select characters have the feature while others don't.

[Dragon5]

I really meant bug 3 [...] It is an interesting bug, and I feel this would help add depth LF2. I really like the thought of characters being able to do moves out of running.

That one is an intended feature in my opinion. Simply because select characters have the feature while others don't.

You're missing the point. I can make it so where everybody can do it just by adding the special moves for the running frames. Try it yourself.

[YinYin]

Obviously. But don't you think the difference matters?
I mean you can also add a fire sword to Firen and an ice run to Freeze.
You can give everyone an energy explosion and a back dash defend.
Make everyone the same.

Obviously you can add special move inputs anywhere you want. But does it make sense?

Give me a list of all characters that can perform their special moves from running (maybe even which moves in particular if it's not all of them) vs the ones that can't. You should have a look at whether the distinction makes sense.

[Dragon5]

Davis, Julian, Bat, Justin, and Bat are the only characters that can do it. Davis is the only one out of the main characters. They can do all of their moves from this. Woody and Deep have rolling moves, but they are irrelevant to what I am trying to get help with. Remember: the focus is on doing special moves from RUNNING, not rolling. I know I accidentally messed up my initial post, but I've been trying to clear it up (to no avail, apparently).
Personally, I do not see why only one character out of the main 10 can do this while two of the bosses can (and two minors, but their potential is only slight compared to the other three). If anything, this makes them deadlier as they don't need to roll before doing a special move from running. Bat's Turn Punch, Davis's Strafe, Julian's Big Bang are a few moves that benefit from this as they can be done suddenly. Davis has type:4 frames with Strafe to deflect incoming objects. Why roll under projectiles or weapons when he can punch everything? Don't forget he can hop over attacks too now. Uppercut benefits from invincibility with rolling, but let's look at shooting projectiles behind while running away. This allows players to play a better evasive game. How fair is that?
Maybe I'm going a little too deep, but that is the whole point of my version. I want to look into the game as much as I can. I've looked into Super Smash Bros Melee, Project M, Street Fighter IV, Melty Blood, Injustice, and a few other fighters. Besides gameplay the games' depth comes from how much control you have over your character, and oftentimes it comes from mechanics that are seemingly awkward to emulate in real life (FADC, shield bunker cancel, crouch cancel, Reverse beat, Safe Landing/L-Cancel, juggles, etc.). What's wrong with expanding the game on an obscure mechanic for everybody to use while trying to fix a few quirks it presents that would make it awkward?

I know you've been extensively looking into LF2 and the way Marti designed it, but it feels like you're making assumptions here (Especially since you're all around but the problem I am trying to get out). If anything, this bug is likely an oversight. I don't think Marti knew about this or the problems it causes, else he would have fixed it and several other bugs that affect direction when it came to MP. That thought may seem impossible now, but if Marti knew back then he likely would have found a way.

Explain to me how giving everyone one common change will eliminate character variety. It's a "perk" that Davis only has? It can't be called much when it's not something most players would have known. You can't call it part of his design as doing special moves from running is not a concept generally possible in LF2. How can you even compare my idea to the other cliche ideas? Doing moves everywhere? Please, point out where I explicitly said that. Why is it wrong for me to add the option for everyone to run-cancel special moves? If anything, it increases everybody's potential and raises the skill ceiling for everybody a decent amount. Davis shouldn't have all the glory as he already has good special moves. Maybe this will do good, maybe it won't; right now nothing is concrete. Honestly, I haven't gotten far yet on this as my first idea for a compromise between rolling and special moves failed.


This is straying far off from the original intention of this thread. I tried to clear myself up and it has lead to this. All I wanted was help on trying to work around the weird MP problems by making a frame right before rolling. My attempts were not 100% successful. Perhaps I should have given data on what I did first even though I was at school at the time.
I'll reword my first post if my thoughts on what I want to do are not clear enough.

@STM: So I can't fix the mid-rolling? That's a little interesting to know. I'm really sorry for confusing people due to my own laziness and oversight of which bug I meant to specify.

[STM1993]

@STM: So I can't fix the mid-rolling? That's a little interesting to know.

Yeah, no fixing it without outright removing D>A/J from rolling frames. My proof is that this always happens if a frame has a left/right combo and the character has insufficient mana. When I did D<J while Deep is rolling, he'd change direction mid-roll. However, if I did D<A while rolling, he'd roll completely, but immediately after his rolling frames in his standing frames, he'd turn around without using the move because he's still out of mana at the end of the roll.


The way I see it, using moves while running(along with the directional roll/dash bug) is an unintended feature, probably as a result of copy-pasting seeing as only the new version 1.9 characters(Julian/Bat/Justin) and Davis have them. However, I don't see this as something that is truly unique to Davis' fighting style; I am of the impression that characters like John, Henry, Rudolf and Dennis could have this ability as well considering their greater focus on position/mobility/evasion. Perhaps even more deserving than Davis himself, especially Dennis since he has similar D>A/DvA moves that would benefit from this the same way Davis would.

In addition, I don't see why a character who can use D>J when rolling should be denied the ability to use D>J while running since its only a matter of whether he presses the buttons all at once or one by one. (Not the other way round of course)

As for the roll direction change bug: being able to suddenly change direction when rolling can be pretty dangerous in PvP. If this ability proves to be too powerful to be kept to a few characters and yet cannot be fixed, I'd rather that every character has this ability as a game mechanic common to all characters than limit it as some obscure technique. Maybe even deliberately invoke it by making all characters have D>A while rolling, but actually leads to a frame with impossible mana cost.

[YinYin]

I've been trying to clear it up (to no avail, apparently).

Nono, don't worry. I understood that it's about running pretty quickly.

And now that I see the lineup of characters who can do this ...

Bat [...] and Bat

... I gotta admit it might really be a copy&paste mistake. Considering how Bat still has a DvA too, these are probably all based on the Davis seed, thus inheriting some of his features.

Anyway I'm with you on all that. Nothing wrong with it. I'm just saying you should consider whether some characters might not be suited to have a feature due to their personality and other unique advantages.

Explain to me how giving everyone one common change will eliminate character variety. It's a "perk" that Davis only has?

Right now, yes. Then again Davis is horribly overpowered in 1on1 anyway and I also think a lot of similar data bugs should've been fixed with the last release. I'm not saying you shouldn't even dare and try it on every character. Just saying you should consider leaving some out, because depth isn't solely generated through everyone-has-it-features. You should consider every characters special moves their attitude and how much of an impact the change will have. All of Davis' moves for example look and feel very well right out of running. Same goes for Justin, Jack, Bat and Julian. But I know some others may look a little awkward or enable strange situations due to the extra momentum.

How can you even compare my idea to the other cliche ideas? Doing moves everywhere? Please, point out where I explicitly said that.

I can compare anything I want. Apples and bananas for example. I like both, they are tasty but they have a different colour, taste and texture. And I cannot point you out because I said it first :p You are barking up a non existent tree.

All I wanted was help on trying to work around the weird MP problems by making a frame right before rolling. My attempts were not 100% successful. Perhaps I should have given data on what I did first even though I was at school at the time.
I'll reword my first post if my thoughts on what I want to do are not clear enough.

Now I finally understand - you never mentioned the mp before. The problem is suddenly running the other way when using this at low mp? (The other thread doesn't really specify this either. Just 'weird things') Or what does the weird dash/roll look like? I guess I gotta try myself. Wait no. I bet you get to roll or dash into the wrong direction.

Yeah I guess I would rather ditch this all together than give every character a sudden back dash/roll. The problem is the turning happens right on the frame with the hit_Fx without enough mana. You cannot really get past that unless you have an mp free move like Rudolfs leap attack.