Metaphysics anyone?

[LutiChris]

What are your thoughts about death and ageing?
do you think it's something we can conquer or is it innevitable?
Would you want to live forever if the opportunity presented itself?
What are your thoughts on Life Extension methods and programs (example: Cryonics)
we can also discuss any of the transhumanist movements, cures, ideas or anything else related :P

edit) STM1993 has brought up metaphysics which is a traditional branch of philosophy concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world that encompasses it.

we can also discuss Aesthetics, Epistemology, Ethics, Logic, Metaphysics Political and social philosophy.

[A-Man]

If it wasn't for aging and death, we'd all be useless. One main reason for why people came up with inventions and discoveries is because they wanted to live even after they die, by their names carved in rocks or written in books for eternity. If we were all to live forever, we'd live a life seeking pleasure and only pleasure, naturally.

One thing I'd like to know your thoughts  (your, as LFE as a whole)  about is euthanasia.

[Gespenst]

Thats the kind of topics I always wanned on LFE but never came up with a good theme.
Toast!!!



We will never beat death and aging. Even if we extend lenght of life. Even if we stay young or look young in our 50s, like Japanese people. We will still age.

We cannot conquer, we can slow it down, try fighting to stop it for some amount of time but we will not conquer it. Nothing is innevitable.

Would you want to live forever if the opportunity presented itself?

I liked this one. I would like to live forever if I would be able to end it at the momment I wanned. If we are not talking about being immortal, then you can always kill yourself in that case. Actualy I would like to see the future, how everything will happen but other than that I would like to time travel...

What are your thoughts on Life Extension methods and programs (example: Cryonics)

It's like cheating death in the early stage. Cryonics is like time travel, you awaken after some time and you have no memmory of the events because you were frozen, am I right? Or cryonics is just like cooling your body down so when doctor is fixing you, your body would die slower but not stop dying.
If it extends my life when I am old, that would be so people around me could be happier than at the time of my end of time. While I am still young and healthy(maybe healthy) taking such methods means nothing to me because I can die just now by a bullet or knife stab or maybe tommorow car will hit me. I hope that won't happen...

we can also discuss any of the transhumanist movements, cures, ideas or anything else related :P

Eating healthy food will not help. I have heard from a medicine lecturer that vegans die more than carnivores because nowadays non meat and flesh food contains more poison than meat.

If we were all to live forever, we'd live a life seeking pleasure and only pleasure, naturally.

In my opinion, I think that you are wrong. What if great scientist would have not died. Imagine if S. Hawkings woud die, I hope he is well and safe right now. He is so smart, wise and he is so good at his job. He is the example. Imagine if Nikola Tesla would have not died. It's sad that Lithuania wikipedia have very few information about Nikola.

euthanasia

Depends on for what reason it was used. Just to end someones life or to avoid someone being in pain of death?
One part of me agrees on that but other part does not. WE want to live long enough to see another day but why to end it? Because there is no cure for some things.

[A-Man]

If we were all to live forever, we'd live a life seeking pleasure and only pleasure, naturally.

In my opinion, I think that you are wrong. What if great scientist would have not died. Imagine if S. Hawkings woud die, I hope he is well and safe right now. He is so smart, wise and he is so good at his job. He is the example. Imagine if Nikola Tesla would have not died. It's sad that Lithuania wikipedia have very few information about Nikola.

I've always thought Hawkings was overrated as a scientist, but regardless. Scientists very often do what they do because they seek recognition that would, abstractly, grants them another life even after they're dead. If everyone was to live forever, I could only see us getting this far with science and technology by the majority of the rich actually enslaving these great minds.

euthanasia

Depends on for what reason it was used. Just to end someones life or to avoid someone being in pain of death?
One part of me agrees on that but other part does not. WE want to live long enough to see another day but why to end it? Because there is not cure for some things.

But would you say for certain that a cure to whatever disease once thought to be incurable wouldn't be developed in one of these next days the patient may live? Would ending the life of a desperate patient without his consent be considered murder? Would ending his life with his consent not be considered suicide?

[Gespenst]

But would you say for certain that a cure to whatever disease once thought to be incurable wouldn't be developed in one of these next days the patient may live?

Sorry, I had a hard time understanding what you ment.
You mean that if cure occur in one of next days after someones uses euthanasia method and that could have saved someone? Well if thats the case, it would not make it in time. I know how people die. One day you see them look like sick but kind a good way and another day it's over, same works with animals and any other being.

Would ending the life of a desperate patient without his consent be considered murder?

You do know how euthanasia works or atleast I think that you know. Nobody does that without anyone permission. Do doctor is a killer when he fails to save a life during the surgery process? No. What I am saying, patient is in deadly pain, he is not like trying to live but he is trying to die without pain but that pain hurts him. Death with no pain is hundred times better than Death with a pain.

Would ending his life with his consent not be considered suicide?

You are already dying, you just end it more quickly in medical way. It's not hanging yourself on the rope. Since euthanasia is allowed in some countries, in those countries it's not murder or suicide. Because you are not doing it alone with a needle in a locked room. Nobody comes and does not stabs you without a permission. This is serious process.

[STM1993]

What are your thoughts about death and ageing?
do you think it's something we can conquer or is it innevitable?
Would you want to live forever if the opportunity presented itself?
What are your thoughts on Life Extension methods and programs (example: Cryonics)
we can also discuss any of the transhumanist movements, cures, ideas or anything else related :P

I see ageing as the result of an accumulation of mistakes and wounds in the body. Considering that it is possible to perform genetic alteration, the existence of the "immortal jellyfish" and how simple organisms like trees can live really long since their simpler structures makes them less prone to error, I would say it is possible to conquer death as a result of old age and perhaps even all injuries.

Conquering death itself however, I think is impossible. Such an act would suggest being able to outright bring someone back to life even after they are long dead, as well as being able to survive without sustenance.

Live forever? I think at some point I'd be pretty sick and tired of the world around me. No complaints about extending life as long as it isn't a meaningless extension like being a permanent comatose/vegetative state (I support euthanasia). My main concern is whether there would be a strain on resources and create more elitism. I think it would be incredibly stupid to give birth to a new generation when the old generation refuses to give up their already considerable status/wealth and insist that they are always right. That would only lead to stagnation as there are no fresh minds who haven't see it all to think outside the box and a culture of "the elders/elites are always right".

Dunno about the present life extension methods, but I wouldn't consider cryogenics one, since you'd be put to sleep and technically just be undergoing time travel to the future. As for transhumanism, I'm all for improving the human race, but my 2 main concerns come down to economics and prediction. Will everyone have access to the enhancements so as to avoid creating yet another social divide? How do you know that the enhancements made are going to be beneficial in the long run when things constantly change?

tl;dr
Can overcome death by age/injuries, but can't run from the very concept of death itself.
A person who lives very long would grow really jaded as well as self-absorbed, leading to stagnation & many of them can cause a huge strain on finite resources.
Difficult to predict the future when things constantly change, and difficulty in ensuring all humans benefit.

[A-Man]

You mean that if cure occur in one of next days after someones uses euthanasia method and that could have saved someone? Well if thats the case, it would not make it in time. I know how people die.

Yes, that is what I meant, but it seems replying to that would require me asking the questions again: Can you say for sure that the cure won't make it in time?

One day you see them look like sick but kind a good way and another day it's over, same works with animals and any other being.

Exactly, and you should've seen people who're looking deadly sick then all of the sudden it's all over.

You do know how euthanasia works or atleast I think that you know. Nobody does that without anyone permission. Do doctor is a killer when he fails to save a life during the surgery process? No. What I am saying, patient is in deadly pain, he is not like trying to live but he is trying to die without pain but that pain hurts him. Death with no pain is hundred times better than Death with a pain.

I was just trying to emphasize a point.

You are already dying, you just end it more quickly in medical way. It's not hanging yourself on the rope. Since euthanasia is allowed in some countries, in those countries it's not murder or suicide. Because you are not doing it alone with a needle in a locked room. Nobody comes and does not stabs you without a permission. This is serious process.

But those who commit suicide can be said to suffer mentally to the point they'd rather die than suffer all this. Still, suicide can't be excused.

[Marko]

Our lifes are "pointless", there won't be cure for deaths (in our lifetime at least) and even if there was any it would be ridiculous. Imagine every person on Earth is immortal and by my reasearch 353,000 babies are born each day around the world. By end of the month humans population would grow for 10 000 000 because no one dies, by the end of the year that would make 120,000,000 more, and so on.. It would be impossible to live in Earth. (Yeah, i am curious as well what mind-blowing things humanity will find out, but you can't help yourself about it.) We will die sooner or later, deal with it.
Having that said, no wonder people believe in God and heavens... but lets face it, there is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in our observable Universe and that's just a small part of whole Universe. No matter how small are chances for life to be created coincidentally, Universe is big enough to fullfil that chance thausands times at least. And probably, somewhere there is life similar to ours.

My point is that God doesn't exist. It's not miracle that life exists.. when you die, that's it, it's all over for you.... but don't get me wrong, i am not some kind of pesimistic person or however it's called.
What i am trying to say is that after your death you still live in memories of your loved ones so when we already got chance to live why don't we make the most out of it?

Let's enjoy life and do whatever makes us happy, let's help others to find the same.
Find love of you life, make kids with her/him, make them the greatest persons they can be, be the best father/mother of all time, give them all your love, spread happiness around, make friends that will know you as great, cheerful person, make them tell stories about your greatness to their kids... and i assure you, only then you will live forever!
That's the farthest you can go in life.

Until you don't face with those things, you will never know real truth. Just think about it, ask yourself what is real purpose of life? what can i do today to be better person and live "forever"?

[LutiChris]

My Responses (Click to View)

Doctor A (Click to View)

If it wasn't for aging and death, we'd all be useless.

Ah yes, death is a motivator for some people. I would argue that if someone (not all of them just some) believed in an after life they wouldn't be motivated to do anything productive and just seek pleasure (or suppressing it if their dogma says so) Especially the people who believe in the upcoming raptures. The same can be said for someone who is a nihilist. but i don't think we should rely on the fear of death just to be useful.

One main reason for why people came up with inventions and discoveries is because they wanted to live even after they die, by their names carved in rocks or written in books for eternity.

It's acceptable for most people to want to be remembered for their discoveries, works and achievements. However, I don't think it's reasonable to leave your legacy to live on through your children since they are not you and may not even represent your ideas and even go at lengths to destroying the lineage simply because they don't want kids of their own.

If we were all to live forever, we'd live a life seeking pleasure and only pleasure, naturally.

if we have plenty of time to do anything we'll eventually get it done - or not (it's your choice). Yes, it may appear like we are not getting anything done at the moment but just because we are not forced to do it soon we can always do it later and focus on spending our time elsewhere "seeking pleasure". However, i fail to see why this is a bad thing. People can still do great things if they find it in themselves to go pursue their interests - whether it's finding alien life on other planets, or entertaining a couple of sex crazed chimpanzee's.

I think the negative thing about it would be doing things like homework, and job related deadlines (those are given to us - so thats easy) Now if you're not being told what to do then it's your responsibility to make your own schedule, and get into the habit of things that you should be doing (like your goals - whatever that may be)
 
if someone's life goal is to benefit their community with whatever the hell entertainment or knowledge they wanna present - i'm sure they would have to find it interesting themselves because - you know it's their life goal after all! they would let their interests and passion drive them to continue to inspire, inform and entertain others because they felt the need to do so. or if they didn't feel the need to carry any significance to the outside world other than just that's cool too. not all of us are inclined to pursue dreams or even have dreams of our own. In due time that may change. In the meantime someone is bound to take their place.

no one is obligated to go and look for something. most people find meaning on their own and that drives them to help the economy going, as well as other factors and causes that may be responsible for their actions. If people care about one another they would do stuff for each other. again it's not about obligation but because they want to do it. I mean that's why we do stuff for the most part. get money to do stuff. taking care of others, doing non profit organization to help someone's cause and needs. and in that sense we are also deriving a pleasure knowing we are doing some good out of it (or for whatever reason really)

i have a hard time believing everybody is going to be negatively affected by living forever that it won't help society, sure it creates more problems but the problems can be fixed as well as the ones that proceed it.

Are we really going to find ourselves bored by the age of over 9000?
I find it very hard for myself to be bored at all. I'm constantly engaged online. Opening new sources of information for me to read and learn about like the latest and greatest cooking recipes. And if i'm not learning i'm just fooling around doodling or playing games. I don't see how anyone can be bored. If they are ... then they need to make a change in their lives (could be as simple as challenging yourself to do things you don't want to do or haven't done before or you know - suicide if that's an easy way out of your problems)

if you brought back someone that lived in the dark ages they would not have thought it was possible for any of this to happen. Go and show them your cell phone and they would think it was magic - until they come across some articles explaining how such & such things worked. take a look at these interesting predictions

One thing I'd like to know your thoughts  (your, as LFE as a whole)  about is euthanasia. 

i don't think people should be allowed to die if they aren't ready to. And that also means dying of old age. I know that may seem crazy since nature programmed us to do that. And over the course of history we've been brought up and grown accustomed to accept that it's okay to die because it's "natural" and nothing about that can change. Things may change for the better when science comes around to it. I am skeptical if it can be done within our lifetime but who knows we'll have to wait and see.

There are three types of Classification for the term "euthanasia"

Voluntary (reasonably okay - depends on the circumstance)
Involuntary (illegal in all countries - not to be tolerated)
and Non-Voluntary (mixed feelings - again it depends on the situation).

I like to think anyone has the right to choose (except minors and other folks who are legally found to be irresponsible for their actions/crimes) Even if it's something i don't agree with, i don't know what i would do in the moment. if thats what they want to do it's a matter of choice and i don't want to physically interfere with that. All i can really offer is advice and talk them out of it. Now if a medical doctor says their is nothing they can do for them and the pain and suffering is too much for them to handle then i don't see why not.

I feel the same thing about abortion. Don't care if someone i don't know is doing it. If it doesn't directly affect me i don't care. it's their choice. If someone i knew was going to kill themselves, someone else, or their baby i'd like to think i would go confront them about it. It also depends on the situation. When someone is trying to kill you and they leave you with no other alternative, trapped in a corner and you're forced into a position where the only way to survive is to kill them or someone then in that circumstance - i would see that as fine.

Sänger (Click to View)

We will never beat death and aging...We cannot conquer, we can slow it down, try fighting to stop it for some amount of time but we will not conquer it. 

Well thats a pretty close minded statement. Why do you think we can not over come age? or even death?

Even if we extend lenght of life. Even if we stay young or look young in our 50s, like Japanese people. We will still age.

Think of our bodies as a car. if we replace every faulty problem in a car over it's life time then you can cheat death. check this video out our cells are always dying and changing into other cells. Also who says we even have to stay in these decaying bodies anyways. What are your thoughts on being a robot?

do you think it's something we can conquer or is it innevitable?

Nothing is innevitable.

So death is inevitable? unavoidable? unquestionable? there's nothing we can do to change it? there's always going to be a limit no matter how far we get?

Cryonics is like time travel, you awaken after some time and you have no memmory of the events because you were frozen, am I right? Or cryonics is just like cooling your body down so when doctor is fixing you, your body would die slower but not stop dying.

it's basically the idea that science will find a way to reanimate your body in the future. the process is through vitrification. "This differs from freezing in that 60 percent of the water inside the cells is replaced with protective chemicals called cryoprotectants before the temperature is dropped. Instead of freezing, the body’s molecules slow movement until all chemical reactions stop. (at approximately -124°C). If cryonics were simply freezing, ice crystals would form and damage the tissue. If you’ve ever frozen a banana and then tried thawing it out, you know it doesn’t rebound to its natural banana shape. This is because the formation of ice crystals (freezing) and subsequent deformation (thawing) cause changes in the molecules. However, while vitrification ensures there is no damage due to ice-crystal formation, reversing the process does not yet work quite the way cryonics is intended—the vitrification solution itself has some biochemical side effects." - valerie barbaro

i am skeptical about it, i'm not going to foolishly jump onto something that may not work. Something could happen in the future where they decide "oh no we don't have enough money to support your life" or a disastrous incident could occur where the entire facility in which im stationed in is destroyed by some crazy guy or we're at war.

i would have this as a back up plan if i was seriously considering it once i got up to the point where i am old, have no where else to turn to, and find there aren't any signs of a cure within my lifetime.

STM1993 (Click to View)

Conquering death itself however, I think is impossible. 

while i agree that some things are impossible because of our situation, it's only a matter of time, investigation, resources and the man power that can be the seed to conquer just about anything. I don't know how we'll conquer death since everything in the universe is trying to kill us but i can imagine a scenario where some guy in the future uploads his consciousness into a cyborg and if we get to that point where we can escape into another reality then he would have some sort of device attached to it programming him to travel to different worlds away from humanity and anything nearby that might lead to his demise. It'll anticipate, calculate risks and dangers to be avoided and when the end of the universe is about to happen just simply escape into another timeline or another fresh universe and repeat the process all over. and just for arguments sake in order for him to not kill himself we would make him brain dead, unconscious the entire time, or entertained forever. i'm sure there are other better scenario's since mine is pretty convoluted.

impossibilities occur in the moment, lack of knowledge of resources that prevent us from allowing us to get to that goal. calculating probability seems to be the only logical and pragmatic way of going about things. we're not left with 100% certainty. things are going to have to be estimated, even our best measuring tools have a marginal error. I think It's possible that the idea of defeating death can be accomplished but i guess the real answer would be is it likely as of now? no. How about in the future? who knows...

my point is in certain circumstances, in a different time, or in a different reality than our own, it's possible to could conquer death. very improbable as it sounds, it seems a little bit more likely for at least one individual sentient being to do it. again i don't have any proof that there is a god. but the possibility may still be out there even though it is very improbable since such a being is impossible to test. i feel like we could have the tools in many many years to come.

Marko (Click to View)

It would be impossible to live in Earth. (Yeah, i am curious as well what mind-blowing things humanity will find out, but you can't help yourself about it.) We will die sooner or later, deal with it.

arguments like "oh no you'll overpopulate the earth." sound more like excuses. Yes overpopulation would be a problem but i don't think we should stop and give up researching. Seriously what if there was an actual way to over come age, all manners of diseases, and even death. it just seems to me every time we found a problem we would solve it slowly but surely. We make scientific advancements constantly even things we couldn't dream about 100 years ago. overpopulation can be figured out later and we could even get to the point where we can breed and populate other planets and moons. maybe even cross between dimensions and other realities. it all seems like fiction but if we grabbed someone from the past they would not have believed what we as a society have amounted to in such discoveries. The idea that we are content with thinking that this is alright and that this problem will stay a problem, discourages people from thinking we can possibly cure it. same idea applies when someone hangs onto a religious idea and are content that there is an after life and make no effort in learning if they might be wrong.

What i am trying to say is that after your death you still live in memories of your loved ones so when we already got chance to live

I'm just going to copy what i told Doctor A
It's acceptable for most people to want to be remembered for their discoveries, works and achievements. However, I don't think it's reasonable to leave your legacy to live on through your children since they are not you and may not even represent your ideas and even go at lengths to destroying the lineage simply because they don't want kids of their own.

tl;dr (Click to View)

you thought it was that easy, didn't you? go read my rant
and if you did, thanks for putting up with me. here's a big cookie!

[STM1993]

One main reason for why people came up with inventions and discoveries is because they wanted to live even after they die, by their names carved in rocks or written in books for eternity.

It's acceptable for most people to want to be remembered for their discoveries, works and achievements. However, I don't think it's reasonable to leave your legacy to live on through your children since they are not you and may not even represent your ideas and even go at lengths to destroying the lineage simply because they don't want kids of their own.

However, I'd like to point out that leaving a legacy - passing down knowledge - is precisely what has allowed us to advance so much. Achievements today cannot have been accomplished without the foundation set in the past by our predecessors.

Are we really going to find ourselves bored by the age of over 9000?
I find it very hard for myself to be bored at all. I'm constantly engaged online. Opening new sources of information for me to read and learn about like the latest and greatest cooking recipes. And if i'm not learning i'm just fooling around doodling or playing games. I don't see how anyone can be bored. If they are ... then they need to make a change in their lives (could be as simple as challenging yourself to do things you don't want to do or haven't done before or you know - suicide if that's an easy way out of your problems)

Let me put it this way. When you can live forever, you have infinite time to do everything that can possibly be done for an infinite number of repetitions. Sooner or later, you'd know everything there is and have done everything there is; there is nothing that can surprise you or give you a sense of discovery or achievement since your vast experience effectively gives you 20/20 foresight. Unless you outright forget/erase your own memory and start all over, I'm pretty confident that you are going to be bored and take the easy way out.

Conquering death itself however, I think is impossible. 

while i agree that some things are impossible because of our situation, it's only a matter of time, investigation, resources and the man power that can be the seed to conquer just about anything. I don't know how we'll conquer death since everything in the universe is trying to kill us but i can imagine a scenario where some guy in the future uploads his consciousness into a cyborg and if we get to that point where we can escape into another reality then he would have some sort of device attached to it programming him to travel to different worlds away from humanity and anything nearby that might lead to his demise. It'll anticipate, calculate risks and dangers to be avoided and when the end of the universe is about to happen just simply escape into another timeline or another fresh universe and repeat the process all over. and just for arguments sake in order for him to not kill himself we would make him brain dead, unconscious the entire time, or entertained forever. i'm sure there are other better scenario's since mine is pretty convoluted.

impossibilities occur in the moment, lack of knowledge of resources that prevent us from allowing us to get to that goal. calculating probability seems to be the only logical and pragmatic way of going about things. we're not left with 100% certainty. things are going to have to be estimated, even our best measuring tools have a marginal error. I think It's possible that the idea of defeating death can be accomplished but i guess the real answer would be is it likely as of now? no. How about in the future? who knows...

my point is in certain circumstances, in a different time, or in a different reality than our own, it's possible to could conquer death. very improbable as it sounds, it seems a little bit more likely for at least one individual sentient being to do it. again i don't have any proof that there is a god. but the possibility may still be out there even though it is very improbable since such a being is impossible to test. i feel like we could have the tools in many many years to come.

My main concern in your scenario is how far you are willing to push the definition of "living". As I mentioned before, I can't really call it "living" if you are going to be in a vegetative state for the rest of your life unable to do anything - it'd just be simply "existing".

The impossibility I refer to is to outright break one particular universal law: things tend to stay as they are until they are acted upon by an external force. In the same way, for a living creature to sustain its life beyond simply "existing", it would need some form of resource or sustenance to keep it going. As long as it is possible to cut off this resource, the living creature can die. That's why I believe it is impossible, or at least extremely improbable, that death can truly be conquered.

I don't want to get into all the nitty gritty about time travel due to all the paradoxes and alternate reality theories born from it though, but for argument's sake, if time travel is a fixed loop rather than alternate realities and stuff, then technically you would have conquered death since the stable time loop means that it is destined that you would never die. Otherwise, simply escaping to a different reality or dimension is simply prolonging death rather than truly conquering it since the conditions for death still exist AND there can exist a reality where said conditions have been satisfied.