Zenshin LF2

[natpisk]

That is pretty good project man!

[Dragon5]

Mostly everything is wait: 0 in this mod... The game is faster, but you failed to keep the fluency of the game going with no other adjustments made other than lowering MP costs. The itr is barely touched on most characters evidently, which is vital once you learn what each thing does. I'm used to reviewing though, so expect a bunch a detail from hereon-out. YinYin is actually right: the game is rather boring as projectiles have taken over. It isn't a one-button to win, but you still have destroyed many aspects of the game in aim of your "balance". It feels like it's something made to tackle stage mode honestly.

Davis repeatedly doing uppercuts is broken. A full bar of MP deals 65% health. Four uppercuts with full speed at only 25% MP each. Maybe I haven't explored it fully yet, but it does seem kinda iffy and the only fair trade is to use your mana to do another full uppercut with the counter mechanic in place. You also need to consider something very important: If a character undergoing velocity triggers a frame that uses dvx or dvy (can be during an itr as well), the velocity gets multiplied. I can cancel Dragon Punch into Leap to get some serious air. Did you even know about that trick? Try making an alternate version of moves instead of using the same line if so you don't have to compromise for both, if you wish to balance aerial moves.

Why did you increase the distance on Dennis's DvA, but not the force each hit does? I lowered his reach on my mod to ensure being close would guarantee the hits. Doing it repeatedly is just pointless as you pass the opponent by the second time. Making a move such as his Chasing Blast faster, and with the ability to do it in the air, all with a LOW COST, is actually quite dangerous to spam since it is safe. Jumping Hurricane Kick is definitely unfair since he gets all the benefits of priority combined with a new way to approach. I also need to say the third and fourth balls in his array feel off since everything is wait: 0 and those two are together. Slow it down to even the spread. You give me the impression this is your first endeavor into competitive design.

Did you even think it through with Louis? He lacks armor when he is attacking and walking. That makes his Phoenix Palm incredibly punishable. Slowing it down? It's far too slow even though the damage is roughly the same regardless of distance. Also, I noticed a flaw that makes his rapid kick useless from afar. A frame at the end of the loop has a fall: 70 itr that knocks down regardless. You can change the attacks to fall: 8 or fall: 16 to allow him to eventually knock down grounded, while making a fall: 70 below that itr to allow the opponent to be hit midair and not interfere with the light hits.

Any reason why Henry can shoot five arrows faster than one? It's pointless to even simply press A now. All his other moves are now low-cost and versatile because it's just as fast as shooting one arrow, if not faster. Please at least slow down the spread shot as Henry will become the god of pressure at low health with that move. They also hit each other if you spam them too fast while falling from a jump.

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO DEEP!?!?!? He is NERFED! What's the point of Deep's DvA being able to attack so fast when the first hit sends the opponent flying? The slowness of that move was actually intentional for him as it allowed for him to do decent combo damage. I'm not a pro Deep player, but I can say that you ruined a huge part of his game with that adjustment alone. Do you really expect anyone to follow up with his jump attack after sending the opponent that high? He can't do anything when the opponent can easily counter from that high thanks to your counter mechanic. Only half of his Strafe works because the vrest values are not adjusted to accommodate the speed. He's practically low-tier compared to everybody else. He's one of the most mechanic-dependent characters (with hit-lag in this case, at least) and you failed to consider the consequences of speeding him up. Not even his super punch works properly anymore after speeding it up thanks to bad vrest values; lower them! Deep's only real buff is his... wait for it... projectiles. Yep. Three at once and air-accessible. You changed him from being up close and personal, to another person that relies on projectiles to win. I noticed how you mess with the regular moves on the ground to not be as efficient while projectiles get the opposite treatment. This ain't new, kid!

I don't have the time to test everybody out. I lost interest after looking over just four anyway. The AI is indeed challenging, but I feel safe to say this isn't balanced, unless the bad design is intentional. A lot of things don't look right anyway.

This is what I call "drastic balancing" as the balance comes from extreme measures; such a case is so with the original LF2 as well, but not as extreme as this. I'm glad you released this because you really need feedback. Overall, it doesn't really feel thought through with holes here and there. Keep an eye on arest and vrest values to make sure each attack can connect when they are sped up... if you intend to do that, that is. Even though you managed to prevent infinites through bizarre counterattacks, that doesn't fix how sloppy the game feels from all these awkward buffs. I personally am turned off by how you buffed projectiles so much. It's kinda cliche to me. However, it's your mod, and it's just my opinion.

Addendum:
LouisEX: You nerfed his running attack by making him move faster...? Awkward tradeoff. Louis's swing from his upwards twirl never hits. He is too fast to hit someone after knocking the opponent that high. What's the point of pressing jump to make him boost that quick when you can't control anything with that move? It only hits once that way anyway for a stun. Jump attack is godly with his better jump providing him the ability to hit twice fully. That move is already OP imo. It's incredibly sloppy work, balanced or not.
Everyone may be able to beat each other, but why are you neglecting everything that defined the original characters?

[AmadisLFE]

@Bat Tamer
I Agree with Bat Tamer all the chars are now very weaker and some very stronger.

[xShui]

Mostly everything is wait: 0 in this mod... The game is faster, but you failed to keep the fluency of the game going with no other adjustments made other than lowering MP costs. The itr is barely touched on most characters evidently, which is vital once you learn what each thing does. I'm used to reviewing though, so expect a bunch a detail from hereon-out. YinYin is actually right: the game is rather boring as projectiles have taken over. It isn't a one-button to win, but you still have destroyed many aspects of the game in aim of your "balance". It feels like it's something made to tackle stage mode honestly.

You are right. Projectiles might be to much and cliche but for chars like firen, freeze, henry, john etc but I didn't had a better idea to get them into this rather fast-paced-counter-melee-combat-type.
I rather just use chars like woody, dennis etc and just dodge those proejctiles.


Yes it was really hard for me to balance it that way characters in 1 v 1 in this style but still not op in stage mode.
Stage mode is still challenging with all chars if you just dont use F6 during stages which is what I did for my videos here and mostly prefere for 1 vs 1.
Only Henry is OP in everything atm.

Davis repeatedly doing uppercuts is broken. A full bar of MP deals 65% health. Four uppercuts with full speed at only 25% MP each. Maybe I haven't explored it fully yet, but it does seem kinda iffy and the only fair trade is to use your mana to do another full uppercut with the counter mechanic in place. You also need to consider something very important: If a character undergoing velocity triggers a frame that uses dvx or dvy (can be during an itr as well), the velocity gets multiplied. I can cancel Dragon Punch into Leap to get some serious air. Did you even know about that trick? Try making an alternate version of moves instead of using the same line if so you don't have to compromise for both, if you wish to balance aerial moves.

Uppercut was the only realiable thing davis has I could use as counter move.
I might just make a weaker version of it for that.
Only cuz uppercosts cost 25% mp doesnt mean u will hit them easy.

I dont even know how to make that trick lol.

Why did you increase the distance on Dennis's DvA, but not the force each hit does? I lowered his reach on my mod to ensure being close would guarantee the hits. Doing it repeatedly is just pointless as you pass the opponent by the second time. Making a move such as his Chasing Blast faster, and with the ability to do it in the air, all with a LOW COST, is actually quite dangerous to spam since it is safe. Jumping Hurricane Kick is definitely unfair since he gets all the benefits of priority combined with a new way to approach. I also need to say the third and fourth balls in his array feel off since everything is wait: 0 and those two are together. Slow it down to even the spread. You give me the impression this is your first endeavor into competitive design.

To counter kick against projectiles. If I make it to close you could continously spam that move on a character and kill him without being able to move.
The fast (jumping) hurricane kick barely does damage anyway. Its useful to flee from projectiles or counter projectiles or attack opener.


I only know the most basic stuff about d.c.
I know LF2 since 2004. I was in the spriting team for NSLF2 many years ago but this is actually my first real mod. sorry.

Did you even think it through with Louis? He lacks armor when he is attacking and walking. That makes his Phoenix Palm incredibly punishable. Slowing it down? It's far too slow even though the damage is roughly the same regardless of distance. Also, I noticed a flaw that makes his rapid kick useless from afar. A frame at the end of the loop has a fall: 70 itr that knocks down regardless. You can change the attacks to fall: 8 or fall: 16 to allow him to eventually knock down grounded, while making a fall: 70 below that itr to allow the opponent to be hit midair and not interfere with the light hits.

? o.O

Any reason why Henry can shoot five arrows faster than one? It's pointless to even simply press A now. All his other moves are now low-cost and versatile because it's just as fast as shooting one arrow, if not faster. Please at least slow down the spread shot as Henry will become the god of pressure at low health with that move. They also hit each other if you spam them too fast while falling from a jump.

Henry is OP anyway and I dont like using him either. You can also just perma spam his palm 4-5 times a row. My ideas just lacked for him. I tried to make a chargable arrow with hold button like NTSD 2 but its to hard to implement so I left it.

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO DEEP!?!?!? He is NERFED! What's the point of Deep's DvA being able to attack so fast when the first hit sends the opponent flying? The slowness of that move was actually intentional for him as it allowed for him to do decent combo damage. I'm not a pro Deep player, but I can say that you ruined a huge part of his game with that adjustment alone. Do you really expect anyone to follow up with his jump attack after sending the opponent that high? He can't do anything when the opponent can easily counter from that high thanks to your counter mechanic. Only half of his Strafe works because the values are not adjusted to accommodate the speed. He's practically low-tier compared to everybody else. He's one of the most mechanic-dependent characters (with hit-lag in this case, at least) and you failed to consider the consequences of speeding him up. Not even his super punch works properly anymore after speeding it up thanks to bad vrest values; lower them! Deep's only real buff is his... wait for it... projectiles. Yep. Three at once and air-accessible. You changed him from being up close and personal, to another person that relies on projectiles to win. I noticed how you mess with the regular moves on the ground to not be as efficient while projectiles get the opposite treatment. This ain't new, kid!

Ok. At first I had to think about a counter move for deep. He is rather a strenght guy so I thought of just giving him that high jump as dodge move in the first place.
Later I started to make his melee and came to the idea to make this chain combo which sends oppent in air so you have multiple ways of using the high jump.
Not every hit of DvA will push enemy into air.
No not low tier. He can still roll with D>JJJJJJJJJJJ which is chainable with the DvA.
what is vrest lol?
Since everybody got a bit projectile update deep also needed at least a small one.

I don't have the time to test everybody out. I lost interest after looking over just four anyway. The AI is indeed challenging, but I feel safe to say this isn't balanced, unless the bad design is intentional. A lot of things don't look right anyway.

Sorry for this horrendous mod xD idk how to make things look much better as they are now.

This is what I call "drastic balancing" as the balance comes from extreme measures; such a case is so with the original LF2 as well, but not as extreme as this. I'm glad you released this because you really need feedback. Overall, it doesn't really feel thought through with holes here and there. Keep an eye on arest and vrest values to make sure each attack can connect when they are sped up... if you intend to do that, that is. Even though you managed to prevent infinites through bizarre counterattacks, that doesn't fix how sloppy the game feels from all these awkward buffs. I personally am turned off by how you buffed projectiles so much. It's kinda cliche to me. However, it's your mod, and it's just my opinion.

Sorry but I don't even know what arest and vrest is so its unlikely that I can fix these holes anytime soon xD
Yah spam projectiles is to cliche but idk how I could completely get rid of them for this combat-type.
To me this mod is still fun I mostly use LouisEX or Dennis anyway and they are so fast that no projcetiles can touch them if you know how to play muhahaa.

Addendum:
LouisEX: You nerfed his running attack by making him move faster...? Awkward tradeoff. Louis's swing from his upwards twirl never hits. He is too fast to hit someone after knocking the opponent that high. What's the point of pressing jump to make him boost that quick when you can't control anything with that move? It only hits once that way anyway for a stun. Jump attack is godly with his better jump providing him the ability to hit twice fully. That move is already OP imo. It's incredibly sloppy work, balanced or not.
Everyone may be able to beat each other, but why are you neglecting everything that defined the original characters?

The running attack is lame and I had no idea to improve it.
With practice and timing you can control the move when press J. You can just go through opponent, stun, quit the move while behind opponent and charge up palm into enemy. But as you see you cant just rampage stage with that move.

His movement is fast to dodge the flashy and clishe projectiles...what else lol?

It was my intention to make LouisEX somewhat OP compared to other chars and keep him fastest like in original LF2.




If I would know the how to's I would have fixed sloppynes already and made this mod even much better. I sometimes have some good ideas.
Like hold button to charge attacks like palm and many other stuff. Unfortunatly Im a pretty much noob when it comes to anything which is more advanced in d.c.

[Dragon5]

Sigh... Time for a lecture then. I learned about rest values recently since they were necessary while modifying characters.

Go to an attack's itr. You should see arest and vrest along with a number. These are values used to determine how long of a wait before an attack can hit the opponent again. Attacker is used to hit just one enemy (you must wait that long before hitting another thing), while Victim can be used to hit multiple enemies (the enemy must wait before they can be hit again). That's how I remember them. The number after it determines how long before another hit can be made. A lower number means more hits. You need to consider the wait data for your character's frames to determine a good rest value. Add one or two extra to rest values since the game pauses for three frames on any hit.

Just experiment with Deep's Strafe and Super Punch first. Those need the most attention.

[STM1993]

Gave the mod a try. Same opinion as Bat Tamer, but I'll say it again along with stuff to add-on.

General:
* Why did you allow some characters to counter when they get injured? You basically made low-fall moves like normal punching or Davis' DvA attack useless because these characters can be countered in the middle of their move. And don't you already find it annoying enough that NORMAL Davis can uppercut you when you're punching him?
* Lots of projectiles. A lot of characters are already pretty good at range(trust me, I kite like a madman with every character), all you've done is make gameplay boring because now I don't need to aim and it quickly becomes a spamfest.
* Unnecessary move-chaining and using moves in mid-air. Either they add nothing to combos, screw up the players' inputs or are ridiculously overpowered.

Specific:
* Deep - You ruined him! DvA launches enemy too high into the air, and I can only hit if I use D^J after DvA finishes otherwise it will jump normal height. D>J can't hit people properly because of a lack of vrest and wait adjustment.
* John - Projectile spam. Oh, you made D^A cost HP to use now? Rofl, I'll just cast heal on myself, problem solved.
* Henry - You made him jump higher and he uses abilities faster than he shoots normal arrows. That's just bad.
* Rudolf - I'll just use >>D and spam J and become unkillable. Takes forever to make 4 clones; I hate Rudolf's clones too, but the biggest problem with it is that the clones themselves can multiply, just give it a 10hp cost to use so that clones(who always spawn with 10hp) can't use it.
* Louis - D>A is way too slow. D>J keeps kicking people down immediately (fall: 70). Standard badly changed transform by making facing higher so the shockwave only hurts those infront of you. Armor doesn't work when Louis is attacking.
Firen - Standard facing increase. Stand at top/bottom of map, use D>A 3 times while holding up/down - nearly 500 damage for only 30hp and about 150 mp. Why does Firen run faster when you press J, and when you press J again after that you stop? Firen can burn himself when attacking out of fire run.
Freeze - Standard facing increase. Bad.
Dennis - Awkward D>A. Bad DvA which tends to miss last hit and unnecessary chaining. D>J can speed up by pressing A/J for no good reason.
Woody - Uses teleport as a counter. Teleport to ally(DvJ) will be stuck and enemies will still try to attack you until you press J again. D>J in mid-air.
Davis - D^J is just screwed up, awkward jump angle so it can't punish archers properly and none of the attacks can chain into it. And you can leap while in mid-air and immediately after an uppercut, which is ridiculous.
Bat - Just a slight speedup.
LouisEX - Weird DvA vrest & wait and moveset. Horrendously slow D>A.
Firzen - Mid-air D^A and D>J. Arctic Volcano takes way too long to cast even though it has 1-hit kill potential.

Overall:
The goal was to make this mod faster and smoother. Well, frames are faster and you could potentially kill faster, but many moves feel exaggerated, rough & linear. There is barely any strategy or tactics. A general increase in damage doesn't necessarily translate to faster gameplay either because it could also mean that players start becoming much more defensive and taking safe options rather than try to take risky attacks (played a shooter? see what happens when everyone is a sniper). In fact, that's what is happening. People will just continuously keep away and shoot projectiles and then counter/escape if you try to hit them. Approaching is not feasible even with the supposed anti-projectile approach moves since many of them either overshoot, knock the target down immediately or have vulnerabilities that range can still exploit.

Stage mode? Well, the reason why stage mode is difficult is because the AI is pretty vicious with range attacks and ganging up on you while most characters have pretty limited crowd control and you don't always have criminals to help you. I don't think simply giving the character even more range will really solve the issue at hand.

Being poor at DC is frankly no excuse. LFE has a goldmine of data changing resources and even the best DCers refer to the mainsite from time to time; if you can't understand the data you can just look around here, this forum itself and even look at the original LF2 data for better understanding. What is vrest/arest?
Link.
Here's an exercise: Davis' DvA uses vrest: 7. See what happens when you change it to vrest: 3. And then see what happens when you change it to arest: 7 and try to fight more than 1 enemy.

The holding down charge is more complicated, but there are a few ways to go about it:
Hold A (another link)
Hit Back

I would suggest you read up and at least understand the elements in type 0 and 3 DC beyond simply injury wait mp facing dvx/y/z. Make a simple character before you take on the ambitious project of an entire mod. Don't worry about sprites for now. Modify a character and see how he changes when you adjust something, refer to the original LF2 and compare the difference between characters. Play the original LF2 and understand what exactly makes the characters good and loved, and then you'll understand what to do.

[xShui]

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO DEEP!?!?!? He is NERFED! What's the point of Deep's DvA being able to attack so fast when the first hit sends the opponent flying? The slowness of that move was actually intentional for him as it allowed for him to do decent combo damage. I'm not a pro Deep player, but I can say that you ruined a huge part of his game with that adjustment alone. Do you really expect anyone to follow up with his jump attack after sending the opponent that high? He can't do anything when the opponent can easily counter from that high thanks to your counter mechanic. Only half of his Strafe works because the vrest values are not adjusted to accommodate the speed. He's practically low-tier compared to everybody else. He's one of the most mechanic-dependent characters (with hit-lag in this case, at least) and you failed to consider the consequences of speeding him up. Not even his super punch works properly anymore after speeding it up thanks to bad vrest values; lower them! Deep's only real buff is his... wait for it... projectiles. Yep. Three at once and air-accessible. You changed him from being up close and personal, to another person that relies on projectiles to win. I noticed how you mess with the regular moves on the ground to not be as efficient while projectiles get the opposite treatment. This ain't new, kid!

* Deep - You ruined him! DvA launches enemy too high into the air, and I can only hit if I use D^J after DvA finishes otherwise it will jump normal height. D>J can't hit people properly because of a lack of vrest and wait adjustment.

You also need to consider something very important: If a character undergoing velocity triggers a frame that uses dvx or dvy (can be during an itr as well), the velocity gets multiplied. I can cancel Dragon Punch into Leap to get some serious air.

What I preciesly have to do to not make Davis jump so high everytime with uppercut when I use it as counter?

[YinYin]

What I preciesly have to do to not make Davis jump so high everytime with uppercut when I use it as counter?

Don't put a dvy value on frames with an itr.

[xShui]

What I preciesly have to do to not make Davis jump so high everytime with uppercut when I use it as counter?

Don't put a dvy value on frames with an itr.

All dvy are on 0. Also everytime I use Davids jumphit as counter or after uppercut now he jumps up that high into air that he doesnt fall down again.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/00up76...283%29.dat

[Dragon5]

Armor doesn't work when Louis is attacking.

Small correction: Armor is intended not to work when Louis is attacking.[/quote] Looking into the hex code shows that armor does not apply in certain states for Louis, state 3 notably.

Being poor at DC is frankly no excuse. LFE has a goldmine of data changing resources and even the best DCers refer to the mainsite from time to time; if you can't understand the data you can just look around here, this forum itself and even look at the original LF2 data for better understanding.

I agree. This site's Engrish has helped me in the past. Also, you can make a post in the DC forum if you really need help.

I would suggest you read up and at least understand the elements in type 0 and 3 DC beyond simply injury wait mp facing dvx/y/z. Make a simple character before you take on the ambitious project of an entire mod. Don't worry about sprites for now. Modify a character and see how he changes when you adjust something, refer to the original LF2 and compare the difference between characters. Play the original LF2 and understand what exactly makes the characters good and loved, and then you'll understand what to do.

I wanted to say the same myself. While it is very easy to try to work on something, it takes learning and deep understanding to really make it meaningful. We as gamers tend to take games for granted now as we are familiar with the things that initially shocked us when it first came out, especially because the Internet allows us to look everything up nowadays. Look up the documentary of Street Fighter and see how players were amazed to see the existence of special moves, how primitive players were, and how fun it was to discover them to use against your friends. You don't have to watch the whole thing, but the intro should explain how the game was so successful when it first came out. There's a certain magic games create that innovate. Regardless if we realize it or not, but without it we wouldn't even be playing the game.