[C] Walker - 2.08

[支倉凍砂]

Currently working on version 1.03 while I wait for Gad's sprites ()

1. All counterattacks trigger when hit by fire and ice now. Until now they would trigger if hit up front, but would bug if hit from behind.
   
2. Backstab will counter unblockable attacks. Unsure if I will add it to other counters. (Should all counters counter everything?)
   
3. Dragonfly will now also have dvz: 550 so that you can' t do chess-knight-style attacks.
   
4. Jump attack hitbox relocated and made smaller. Added a earlier hitbox with other properties. Removed invulnerability during active frames (why was it there in the first place?). Now cancels into Dragonfly.
   

Old hitbox for jump attack was ridiculous I realized:

If you use Stampede correctly... (Click to View)

Some possible combos

1. Dragonfly (ground) ⇒ jump attack
   
   1. TK Dragonfly, →, J, A
      
   2. TK Dragonfly, J, delay [→], A
      
   3. in corner TK Dragonfly, J, A
      
2. Anti-armour (Louis, Knight, Julian)
   This will break their armour:
   
   1. jump attack > Dragonfly
      This works on other characters as well if you hit them with the jump attack in the air.
      
   2. Dragonfly, Dragonfly
      This will work on other characters as well, as long you are positioned right.
      
3. Banish, [→]J, A
   
4. Banish, [→]J, Dragonfly
   
5. Impact, delay J, Dragonfly
   

How to do Dragonfly on the ground:

1. JD↓J really fast, as you can cancel the jump start to it.
   
2. Buffer D↓ during another move or a jump.
   
3. D↓ wait until stop defending J
   

[8obis]

If I know Gad the sprites will be done in like a week if he's not busy. Good luck to you both on this project looks like has a lot potencial.

[支倉凍砂]

Version 1.03 out. Last version before the completely new Walker, with sprites by Gad. : D

[支倉凍砂]

Though some time has passed, Walker is not dead! XD
He isn't finished yet, but there has been some work done. Especially, Gad provided a fresh, new and foremost unique look to him. Gad and I kind of dropped out of contact after some rudimentary coding was done, so I have mostly been playing around by myself without a sense of direction.

I would like to discuss the current state of Walker, some of my crazy ideas and the future for him.

Current State
Currently, he has two and half special moves and one extra jump attack. As I really like combos, he is much oriented around being able to turn MP into damage and enlengthen combos. However due to LF2's limited options it is really only one combo and you choose your ender depending on how much MP you have.

Punch damages 20 and Super Punch 40 at the moment. So a total of 100 damage from this point.
From here we can start to use MP (excuse the non-orignal names I came up with now):

D→A: "Phantom Dash"
10MP

Walker move rather quickly forward. Also, this move has a really low hurtbox so many attacks will miss him.
*total move 18F
*low hurtbox 4F～9F
*can input follow-up 4F～8F

D→AA: "Rising Fist"
10MP, 30 damage, fall: 70

Walker punches upward and leaves the ground. He cannot be hit below his waist, so it you can easily counter air attack with it.
It is coded so that whenever you input the command, the start-up and range is the same. On hit it leaves you in a good spot to follow it up.
*10F+4F startup, 2F active, 2F recovery
*low hurtbox 1F～3F

JA
20*2 damage, fall: 41

This was the first of my crazy ideas. What about a two-hit attack as Jump Attack?
It is really hard to hit opponent on ground though. After this attack you have three options, as following:

JJ
30 damage, bdefend: 50, fall: 50

This was originally intended by Gad to be his Dash Attack, but as I removed the dash altogether (more about that later) I used it as an alternative Jump Attack. His normal one doesn't hit opponent below him well, but this does.

JD↓A: "Spectre Kick"
20 MP, 50 damage, bdefend: 60, fall: 70

This is an air only move, but he is invulnerable until recovery. Can be hard to hit low opponents, but with the invulnerability it's still very good as a jump in. TK Spectre Kick has a +1 frame advantage.
*5F+6F startup, 3F active, 7F recovery
*invulnerable 1F～8F

JD↑A: "Spectre Kick II"
30MP, 90 damage, bdefend: 60, fall: 70

As I thought giving to much damage to Spectre Kick would make it too strong, I mirrored the picture of it and made it to its own attack. Instead of kicking upwards, Walker jumps forward and kick straight down. TK Spectre Kick II has a +4 frame advantage.
*5F+7F startup, 3F active, 7F recovery

Maths
Standard combo: AAA > Super A = 100 damage for 0 MP
+20mp ⇒ Rising Fist > JA = 170 damage for 20 MP, 8.5dmg/mp
+0mp ⇒ JJ = +30 damage, +1.5dmg/mp
+20mp ⇒ Spectre Kick = +50 damage, -3.5dmg/mp
+30mp ⇒ Spectre Kick II = +90 damage, -3.8dmg/mp

Without the standard combo, if you start with Rising Fist it looks like:
Rising Fist > JA = 70 damage for 20 MP, 3.5dmg/mp
+0mp ⇒ JJ = +30 damage, +2.5dmg/mp
+20mp ⇒ Spectre Kick = +50 damage, -0.5dmg/mp
+30mp ⇒ Spectre Kick II = +90 damage, -0.3dmg/mp


Crazy Idea
Like I mentioned before, Walker has no dash in the current state. If you try to dash after landing after a jump, you will get another jump.
What about run + J? Here's the thing, currently Walker cannot run. Instead he can do a short, low jump.

As it is a jump, he cancel it into his air special moves. Suddenly they have more range, and this "step" + invulnerable Spectre Kick works wonders.
It is possible to perform the specials from step 1F faster than from jump. Also, for some reason, stepped versions of the specials has +1 more frame advantage.


Future
The next step is to add a counterattack again (D→J). Walker without counterattacks isn't really Walker, though this time I think I will be happy with just one. Some kind of throw, from which you can do Phantom Dash etc. Either that, or you can cancel the counter attack directly into Rising Fist.
I'm thinking of adjusting the catch throw so that it links into Phantom Dash as well.

Spectre Kick II probably has to go, reusing sprites is a little boring. While it has to go, maybe a "ender" move that works similary but looks different is an good idea?

Numbers probably needs revising.

So what do you guys think? Too strong? Too weak? Too weird? Too uncool? Too combo-centered?
Any suggestions or thought?
I'd like to here them.

[Ramond]

Looks and sounds pretty cool! The sprites seem a little familiar though.

Is there any specific reason for invulnerability during Spectre Kick? It is kind of weird if a character gets unhitable for more than one frame for no apparent reason (in the eyes of the player). If it needs to be, at least add some effect to the sprite so that the invulnerability is graphically justified.

Love the idea of replacing the run with little dashes.

[YinYin]

I want to try that new version.

[支倉凍砂]

Looks and sounds pretty cool! The sprites seem a little familiar though.

As not the moveset is almost a complete rip-off. : p

Is there any specific reason for invulnerability during Spectre Kick? It is kind of weird if a character gets unhitable for more than one frame for no apparent reason (in the eyes of the player). If it needs to be, at least add some effect to the sprite so that the invulnerability is graphically justified.

So what do you say about Davis' Dragon Punch?

Moves which have some kind of invulberability from 1F is called "reversals" in fighting game terminology. I'm pretty sure you find them in all 1v1 2D fighting games you have ever played. I won't go into why they are so important (unless if you want to), because it doesn't really apply to LF2 to that extent.

In Walker's case, I'd like to think of it as a must because Walker has no range. He has no projectile attack, he cannot run and he cannot dash. In case of mobility and reach, he is weaker than Bandit. You cannot use dash to suprise your opponent with a quick attack or with z-movement, and if you jump JJ only works on the way down, so opponent will have quite some time to react.

Spectre Kick allows him to use jumps more safely, but as the hitbox isn't the greatest it isn't a completely safe move and it is really dangerous if blocked as well. Furthermore, step SK is in a sense a projectile attack.

Even when a counter attack is added, I think he will need something more to combat range. Maybe removing some of the 9F at the end of Phantom Dash can help this, but I still think that something else also is needed.

Love the idea of replacing the run with little dashes.

Not really my original idea, but thanks. I really like to change some fundamental stuff. Why does everyone need to be able to run?
I have experimented on another character with making it a back dash with invulnerability, so you back step projectiles and other slow attacks.

I want to try that new version.

There are some things I want to change and take a look at before I release a beta-version, but I will probably put it up this week (though it seems to become a busy one T_T)
Any feedback on my questions or suggestions will more than likely speed up the process.

[YinYin]

Okay then

However due to LF2's limited options it is really only one combo and you choose your ender depending on how much MP you have.

Limited options? There are tons of options depending not only on your mp (and possible combo branches) but also position, opponent reaction and items. Not to mention you could connect all his moves (basic and special) in any way you like if you are creative. (Original lf2 characters do have tons of combos even though most of their special moves aren't actually directly connected inside the data)

Walker punches upward and leaves the ground. He cannot be hit below his waist, so it you can easily counter air attack with it.

I hope you mean: cannot be hit above his waist. Otherwise this doesn't make it a good air counter at all.

JA
What about a two-hit attack as Jump Attack?

Are they auto connected like woodys two jump hits or do you have to press attack twice?

JJ
I used it as an alternative Jump Attack. His normal one doesn't hit opponent below him well, but this does.

Hm - it's a little weird to press jump for a normal attack. It might be more intuitive if you did use this as a normal jump attack (like dennis) and recycled the aerial punching for a combo. (a follow up to the rising fist, where the opponent is not on the ground anyway)

JD↑A: "Spectre Kick II"
As I thought giving to much damage to Spectre Kick would make it too strong, I mirrored the picture of it and made it to its own attack.

If it looks good I don't think mirroring an existing move is much of a problem.

Rising Fist > JA = 70 damage for 20 MP, 3.5dmg/mp
+0mp ⇒ JJ = +30 damage, +2.5dmg/mp
+20mp ⇒ Spectre Kick = +50 damage, -0.5dmg/mp
+30mp ⇒ Spectre Kick II = +90 damage, -0.3dmg/mp

I really need to see this in action for proper feedback :d

Like I mentioned before, Walker has no dash in the current state. If you try to dash after landing after a jump, you will get another jump.

From my experience this always looks very clumsy, neglecting any momentum the character may have from the first jump. Maybe you should instead let him perform the low jump with a little more distance.

What about run + J? Here's the thing, currently Walker cannot run. Instead he can do a short, low jump.
As it is a jump, he cancel it into his air special moves. Suddenly they have more range, and this "step" + invulnerable Spectre Kick works wonders.

Not crazy at all. Only the invulnerable spectre kick is probably too strong when you also add more range. You could try experimenting with a version that has a small body in this case.

Too strong? Too weak? Too weird? Too uncool? Too combo-centered?

If he's only got one combo with two endings he sure isn't combo centered at all. Also not weird or uncool at all.
The strength I cannot judge with numbers only. I need to see how well these moves actually work.

[NewToTheEra]

ah (how dont you grt bored)why do you write so much
i loved those sprites

[支倉凍砂]

Walker punches upward and leaves the ground. He cannot be hit below his waist, so it you can easily counter air attack with it.

I hope you mean: cannot be hit above his waist. Otherwise this doesn't make it a good air counter at all.

Yes, it is a typo.

JA
What about a two-hit attack as Jump Attack?

Are they auto connected like woodys two jump hits or do you have to press attack twice?

They are connected, they are meant to give breathing space to input a special move.

JJ
I used it as an alternative Jump Attack. His normal one doesn't hit opponent below him well, but this does.

Hm - it's a little weird to press jump for a normal attack. It might be more intuitive if you did use this as a normal jump attack (like dennis) and recycled the aerial punching for a combo. (a follow up to the rising fist, where the opponent is not on the ground anyway)

Hm. I'll think about that.
Though, I kind of like having options of non-special attacks in the air.

Like I mentioned before, Walker has no dash in the current state. If you try to dash after landing after a jump, you will get another jump.

From my experience this always looks very clumsy, neglecting any momentum the character may have from the first jump. Maybe you should instead let him perform the low jump with a little more distance.

I'm all for non-conditional inputs (which is the reason why, rather than anything else), but I'll consider it because it sounds rather nice.

What about run + J? Here's the thing, currently Walker cannot run. Instead he can do a short, low jump.
As it is a jump, he cancel it into his air special moves. Suddenly they have more range, and this "step" + invulnerable Spectre Kick works wonders.

Not crazy at all. Only the invulnerable spectre kick is probably too strong when you also add more range. You could try experimenting with a version that has a small body in this case.

I rather feel it to be necessary, and it's still atrocious if blocked.

However due to LF2's limited options it is really only one combo and you choose your ender depending on how much MP you have.

Limited options? There are tons of options depending not only on your mp (and possible combo branches) but also position, opponent reaction and items. Not to mention you could connect all his moves (basic and special) in any way you like if you are creative.

I don't mean to say it is impossible to make combos, but I really think the flipping system really makes it hard to make combos. Are you sure that opponent cannot flip during the combos you are mentioning, thus ruining the combo?
A combo that your opponent can react to (after the first attack of course) and escape, isn't really a combo, that is a mind game.
Though, mind games can be favourable, that I won't deny.

I was just coding, and I realised that opponent can flip between the punches of JA, or after JA except for JJ. So I have shorted the time between the two attacks of JA. However to makes sure SK hit, I had to increase the dvy of the second JA. This however meant that opponent is now to high for SK2, so I had to make its dvy crazy to be able to hit as well as increasing the start-up speed slightly.

The only way to combo is to keep going upwards into the air, unless you use effects of some kind.
Though, I am certainly no expert at LF2-character design neither do I have much experience with combos in LF2, so I look forward to your suggestions when you have had a chance to try him.


Because of how weird SK2 looks now I am thinking of axing it. It won't work as ender with any less height and it won't look any good used closed to the ground with it. Instead, I am thinking of increasing the mp cost of SK by 5～20 and increase its damage to make it work better as an ender.
Anyway, any ender to be used after the current JA needs to hit above it otherwise opponent can flip and escape damage.

Thanks for your input! : D

I'll put together a couterattack of some kind when I have time, then I'll release a beta.