[C] Walker - 2.08

[支倉凍砂]

Version 1.03 out. Last version before the completely new Walker, with sprites by Gad. : D

[支倉凍砂]

Though some time has passed, Walker is not dead! XD
He isn't finished yet, but there has been some work done. Especially, Gad provided a fresh, new and foremost unique look to him. Gad and I kind of dropped out of contact after some rudimentary coding was done, so I have mostly been playing around by myself without a sense of direction.

I would like to discuss the current state of Walker, some of my crazy ideas and the future for him.

Current State
Currently, he has two and half special moves and one extra jump attack. As I really like combos, he is much oriented around being able to turn MP into damage and enlengthen combos. However due to LF2's limited options it is really only one combo and you choose your ender depending on how much MP you have.

Punch damages 20 and Super Punch 40 at the moment. So a total of 100 damage from this point.
From here we can start to use MP (excuse the non-orignal names I came up with now):

D→A: "Phantom Dash"
10MP

Walker move rather quickly forward. Also, this move has a really low hurtbox so many attacks will miss him.
*total move 18F
*low hurtbox 4F～9F
*can input follow-up 4F～8F

D→AA: "Rising Fist"
10MP, 30 damage, fall: 70

Walker punches upward and leaves the ground. He cannot be hit below his waist, so it you can easily counter air attack with it.
It is coded so that whenever you input the command, the start-up and range is the same. On hit it leaves you in a good spot to follow it up.
*10F+4F startup, 2F active, 2F recovery
*low hurtbox 1F～3F

JA
20*2 damage, fall: 41

This was the first of my crazy ideas. What about a two-hit attack as Jump Attack?
It is really hard to hit opponent on ground though. After this attack you have three options, as following:

JJ
30 damage, bdefend: 50, fall: 50

This was originally intended by Gad to be his Dash Attack, but as I removed the dash altogether (more about that later) I used it as an alternative Jump Attack. His normal one doesn't hit opponent below him well, but this does.

JD↓A: "Spectre Kick"
20 MP, 50 damage, bdefend: 60, fall: 70

This is an air only move, but he is invulnerable until recovery. Can be hard to hit low opponents, but with the invulnerability it's still very good as a jump in. TK Spectre Kick has a +1 frame advantage.
*5F+6F startup, 3F active, 7F recovery
*invulnerable 1F～8F

JD↑A: "Spectre Kick II"
30MP, 90 damage, bdefend: 60, fall: 70

As I thought giving to much damage to Spectre Kick would make it too strong, I mirrored the picture of it and made it to its own attack. Instead of kicking upwards, Walker jumps forward and kick straight down. TK Spectre Kick II has a +4 frame advantage.
*5F+7F startup, 3F active, 7F recovery

Maths
Standard combo: AAA > Super A = 100 damage for 0 MP
+20mp ⇒ Rising Fist > JA = 170 damage for 20 MP, 8.5dmg/mp
+0mp ⇒ JJ = +30 damage, +1.5dmg/mp
+20mp ⇒ Spectre Kick = +50 damage, -3.5dmg/mp
+30mp ⇒ Spectre Kick II = +90 damage, -3.8dmg/mp

Without the standard combo, if you start with Rising Fist it looks like:
Rising Fist > JA = 70 damage for 20 MP, 3.5dmg/mp
+0mp ⇒ JJ = +30 damage, +2.5dmg/mp
+20mp ⇒ Spectre Kick = +50 damage, -0.5dmg/mp
+30mp ⇒ Spectre Kick II = +90 damage, -0.3dmg/mp


Crazy Idea
Like I mentioned before, Walker has no dash in the current state. If you try to dash after landing after a jump, you will get another jump.
What about run + J? Here's the thing, currently Walker cannot run. Instead he can do a short, low jump.

As it is a jump, he cancel it into his air special moves. Suddenly they have more range, and this "step" + invulnerable Spectre Kick works wonders.
It is possible to perform the specials from step 1F faster than from jump. Also, for some reason, stepped versions of the specials has +1 more frame advantage.


Future
The next step is to add a counterattack again (D→J). Walker without counterattacks isn't really Walker, though this time I think I will be happy with just one. Some kind of throw, from which you can do Phantom Dash etc. Either that, or you can cancel the counter attack directly into Rising Fist.
I'm thinking of adjusting the catch throw so that it links into Phantom Dash as well.

Spectre Kick II probably has to go, reusing sprites is a little boring. While it has to go, maybe a "ender" move that works similary but looks different is an good idea?

Numbers probably needs revising.

So what do you guys think? Too strong? Too weak? Too weird? Too uncool? Too combo-centered?
Any suggestions or thought?
I'd like to here them.

[Ramond]

Looks and sounds pretty cool! The sprites seem a little familiar though.

Is there any specific reason for invulnerability during Spectre Kick? It is kind of weird if a character gets unhitable for more than one frame for no apparent reason (in the eyes of the player). If it needs to be, at least add some effect to the sprite so that the invulnerability is graphically justified.

Love the idea of replacing the run with little dashes.

[YinYin]

I want to try that new version.

[支倉凍砂]

Looks and sounds pretty cool! The sprites seem a little familiar though.

As not the moveset is almost a complete rip-off. : p

Is there any specific reason for invulnerability during Spectre Kick? It is kind of weird if a character gets unhitable for more than one frame for no apparent reason (in the eyes of the player). If it needs to be, at least add some effect to the sprite so that the invulnerability is graphically justified.

So what do you say about Davis' Dragon Punch?

Moves which have some kind of invulberability from 1F is called "reversals" in fighting game terminology. I'm pretty sure you find them in all 1v1 2D fighting games you have ever played. I won't go into why they are so important (unless if you want to), because it doesn't really apply to LF2 to that extent.

In Walker's case, I'd like to think of it as a must because Walker has no range. He has no projectile attack, he cannot run and he cannot dash. In case of mobility and reach, he is weaker than Bandit. You cannot use dash to suprise your opponent with a quick attack or with z-movement, and if you jump JJ only works on the way down, so opponent will have quite some time to react.

Spectre Kick allows him to use jumps more safely, but as the hitbox isn't the greatest it isn't a completely safe move and it is really dangerous if blocked as well. Furthermore, step SK is in a sense a projectile attack.

Even when a counter attack is added, I think he will need something more to combat range. Maybe removing some of the 9F at the end of Phantom Dash can help this, but I still think that something else also is needed.

Love the idea of replacing the run with little dashes.

Not really my original idea, but thanks. I really like to change some fundamental stuff. Why does everyone need to be able to run?
I have experimented on another character with making it a back dash with invulnerability, so you back step projectiles and other slow attacks.

I want to try that new version.

There are some things I want to change and take a look at before I release a beta-version, but I will probably put it up this week (though it seems to become a busy one T_T)
Any feedback on my questions or suggestions will more than likely speed up the process.

[YinYin]

Okay then

However due to LF2's limited options it is really only one combo and you choose your ender depending on how much MP you have.

Limited options? There are tons of options depending not only on your mp (and possible combo branches) but also position, opponent reaction and items. Not to mention you could connect all his moves (basic and special) in any way you like if you are creative. (Original lf2 characters do have tons of combos even though most of their special moves aren't actually directly connected inside the data)

Walker punches upward and leaves the ground. He cannot be hit below his waist, so it you can easily counter air attack with it.

I hope you mean: cannot be hit above his waist. Otherwise this doesn't make it a good air counter at all.

JA
What about a two-hit attack as Jump Attack?

Are they auto connected like woodys two jump hits or do you have to press attack twice?

JJ
I used it as an alternative Jump Attack. His normal one doesn't hit opponent below him well, but this does.

Hm - it's a little weird to press jump for a normal attack. It might be more intuitive if you did use this as a normal jump attack (like dennis) and recycled the aerial punching for a combo. (a follow up to the rising fist, where the opponent is not on the ground anyway)

JD↑A: "Spectre Kick II"
As I thought giving to much damage to Spectre Kick would make it too strong, I mirrored the picture of it and made it to its own attack.

If it looks good I don't think mirroring an existing move is much of a problem.

Rising Fist > JA = 70 damage for 20 MP, 3.5dmg/mp
+0mp ⇒ JJ = +30 damage, +2.5dmg/mp
+20mp ⇒ Spectre Kick = +50 damage, -0.5dmg/mp
+30mp ⇒ Spectre Kick II = +90 damage, -0.3dmg/mp

I really need to see this in action for proper feedback :d

Like I mentioned before, Walker has no dash in the current state. If you try to dash after landing after a jump, you will get another jump.

From my experience this always looks very clumsy, neglecting any momentum the character may have from the first jump. Maybe you should instead let him perform the low jump with a little more distance.

What about run + J? Here's the thing, currently Walker cannot run. Instead he can do a short, low jump.
As it is a jump, he cancel it into his air special moves. Suddenly they have more range, and this "step" + invulnerable Spectre Kick works wonders.

Not crazy at all. Only the invulnerable spectre kick is probably too strong when you also add more range. You could try experimenting with a version that has a small body in this case.

Too strong? Too weak? Too weird? Too uncool? Too combo-centered?

If he's only got one combo with two endings he sure isn't combo centered at all. Also not weird or uncool at all.
The strength I cannot judge with numbers only. I need to see how well these moves actually work.

[NewToTheEra]

ah (how dont you grt bored)why do you write so much
i loved those sprites

[支倉凍砂]

Walker punches upward and leaves the ground. He cannot be hit below his waist, so it you can easily counter air attack with it.

I hope you mean: cannot be hit above his waist. Otherwise this doesn't make it a good air counter at all.

Yes, it is a typo.

JA
What about a two-hit attack as Jump Attack?

Are they auto connected like woodys two jump hits or do you have to press attack twice?

They are connected, they are meant to give breathing space to input a special move.

JJ
I used it as an alternative Jump Attack. His normal one doesn't hit opponent below him well, but this does.

Hm - it's a little weird to press jump for a normal attack. It might be more intuitive if you did use this as a normal jump attack (like dennis) and recycled the aerial punching for a combo. (a follow up to the rising fist, where the opponent is not on the ground anyway)

Hm. I'll think about that.
Though, I kind of like having options of non-special attacks in the air.

Like I mentioned before, Walker has no dash in the current state. If you try to dash after landing after a jump, you will get another jump.

From my experience this always looks very clumsy, neglecting any momentum the character may have from the first jump. Maybe you should instead let him perform the low jump with a little more distance.

I'm all for non-conditional inputs (which is the reason why, rather than anything else), but I'll consider it because it sounds rather nice.

What about run + J? Here's the thing, currently Walker cannot run. Instead he can do a short, low jump.
As it is a jump, he cancel it into his air special moves. Suddenly they have more range, and this "step" + invulnerable Spectre Kick works wonders.

Not crazy at all. Only the invulnerable spectre kick is probably too strong when you also add more range. You could try experimenting with a version that has a small body in this case.

I rather feel it to be necessary, and it's still atrocious if blocked.

However due to LF2's limited options it is really only one combo and you choose your ender depending on how much MP you have.

Limited options? There are tons of options depending not only on your mp (and possible combo branches) but also position, opponent reaction and items. Not to mention you could connect all his moves (basic and special) in any way you like if you are creative.

I don't mean to say it is impossible to make combos, but I really think the flipping system really makes it hard to make combos. Are you sure that opponent cannot flip during the combos you are mentioning, thus ruining the combo?
A combo that your opponent can react to (after the first attack of course) and escape, isn't really a combo, that is a mind game.
Though, mind games can be favourable, that I won't deny.

I was just coding, and I realised that opponent can flip between the punches of JA, or after JA except for JJ. So I have shorted the time between the two attacks of JA. However to makes sure SK hit, I had to increase the dvy of the second JA. This however meant that opponent is now to high for SK2, so I had to make its dvy crazy to be able to hit as well as increasing the start-up speed slightly.

The only way to combo is to keep going upwards into the air, unless you use effects of some kind.
Though, I am certainly no expert at LF2-character design neither do I have much experience with combos in LF2, so I look forward to your suggestions when you have had a chance to try him.


Because of how weird SK2 looks now I am thinking of axing it. It won't work as ender with any less height and it won't look any good used closed to the ground with it. Instead, I am thinking of increasing the mp cost of SK by 5～20 and increase its damage to make it work better as an ender.
Anyway, any ender to be used after the current JA needs to hit above it otherwise opponent can flip and escape damage.

Thanks for your input! : D

I'll put together a couterattack of some kind when I have time, then I'll release a beta.

[YinYin]

Hm. I'll think about that.
Though, I kind of like having options of non-special attacks in the air.

I too like options - but not having to press attack to perform a basic attack is just weird.
You could instead use a double key input:
http://y2f.heliohost.org/index.php?curre...ml#J+DA/JA
It's a little weird to pull off too, but at least you are pressing attack.

I'm all for non-conditional inputs

But lf2 is packed with conditional inputs. If it were not you would only have movement and 3 basic actions, just one for each button.

I don't mean to say it is impossible to make combos, but I really think the flipping system really makes it hard to make combos. Are you sure that opponent cannot flip during the combos you are mentioning, thus ruining the combo?
A combo that your opponent can react to (after the first attack of course) and escape, isn't really a combo, that is a mind game.
Though, mind games can be favourable, that I won't deny.

Actually I think unbreakable combos just turn a fighting game into a ddr/piano game as soon as the combo starts. That puts only the attacker into the actively playing position while the other player sits down passively waiting for a mistake.
The flipping system is a great way to branch out combos - even in a very simple way. If you are fighting a good player it often won't matter whether you flip or not, they will keep you locked in their combo anyway (even if you changed it's direction by flipping, but that can be a mistake and actually make the combo longer).

The only way to combo is to keep going upwards into the air, unless you use effects of some kind.
Though, I am certainly no expert at LF2-character design neither do I have much experience with combos in LF2, so I look forward to your suggestions when you have had a chance to try him.

Well - another option is to anticipate the opponents flip. What can your character do to deal with it? Maybe perform the "Spectre Kick II"? That may end the combo early as he knocks down the landing opponent or misses in case he rolls away, but in either case it prevents you from being open so early on.

[支倉凍砂]

I'm so bad at keeping my word.
After my trip to Europe I kind of got caught up with real life I guess. That is my excuse.

The day before yesterday I felt a sudden must-mod-lf2 and so here I am again.
And it's shaping up.

not having to press attack to perform a basic attack is just weird.
You could instead use a double key input

I'll definately look into this more now, as I don't use JJ much in combos anymore.
It might be useful more as a air-to-ground move, as JA is really bad at that.

Actually I think unbreakable combos just turn a fighting game into a ddr/piano game as soon as the combo starts. That puts only the attacker into the actively playing position while the other player sits down passively waiting for a mistake. ...

another option is to anticipate the opponents flip.

While I certainly agree that combos can't go on forever, I really think that 5-second combos should be in a fighting game. It gives the active player chance to emphasise the advantage he got from the original hit. Without combos a fighting game just turns into pure hit-and-run (especially when there is no okizeme). For the record, I despise Same Fighter.
I do like "tech traps" (fooling opponent to "flip" the wrong way), but it isn't for Walker. Maybe my next project.


So, what have I done the last two days?
Well, most things have changed somewhat and he finally got his counterattack.

Walker 2.00
sneak peak numbers in red
new stuff in green

JA
20*2 damage, fall: 41

● time between attacks is 1F (3F)
● active time for second attack is 1F (3F), total recovery stays the same

JJ
30 damage, bdefend: 10 (50), fall: 30 (60)

● cancels into air specials 6F～

D→A: "Phantom Dash"
10MP

● total move 12F (18F)
● low hurtbox 4F～9F
● can input follow-up 4F～8F
● now keeps momentum after move finishes

D→AA: "Phantom Punch"
10MP, 35 (30) damage, fall: 70

● renamed
● no longer fixed start-up from Phantom Dash, 6F～10F+4F start-up (10F+4F)
● low hurtbox 1F～3F
● less forward momentum

JD↓A: "Spectre Kick"
25 (20) MP, 65 (50) damage, bdefend: 60, fall: 70

● 5F+7F (5F+6F) startup, 2F (3F) active, 8F (7F) recovery
● invulnerable 1F～8F

JD↑A: "Spectre Punch"
15MP (30MP), 50 (90) damage, bdefend: 20 (60), fall: 70

Semi-new move! Instead of a kick downwards it is a punch downwards. Has a narrow, but tall hitbox. On hit you will bounce of opponent, Super Mario-style. Opponent can always flip out of JA > Spectre Kick, but never JA > Spectre Punch because of its quick start-up. A close-up JJ combos to this attack as well.
● 5F+3F (5F+7F) startup, 2F (3F) active, 9F (7F) recovery

D→G: "Phantom Guard"
20MP

New move! However, as I haven't talked to Gad for quite a while I have reused other animations for the counterattack, but I think it looks quite nice. Before I made the throw-part of the move I threw in the ability to counter with Phantom Punch, and it is still there.
This time around you can properly be punished for using it, but I also manage to make it instant.
● 1F start-up, 10F active, 10F recovery
● counters all blockable attacks
● follow-up has 4F start-up, 3F active, 0F recovery and on hit it does 50 damage
● cancel during hitstop to Phantom Punch: this Phantom punch is invulnerable, but is horrible on block


I will readd "jump dash" as you suggested, as soon as I understand how I removed it. I think the data is intact it is probably the fact that it doesn't trigger, but why is that.

I'm all ears for changes to JA and JJ.
If anything else seems overpowering or boring, or if you hate the Mario-jumping tell me so! ; )

Long awaited link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ttn6839kpuyly3....00%5D.rar


By the way, is there a way to create an object that can't leave the screen?