[C] Walker - 2.08

[YinYin]

Hm. I'll think about that.
Though, I kind of like having options of non-special attacks in the air.

I too like options - but not having to press attack to perform a basic attack is just weird.
You could instead use a double key input:
http://y2f.heliohost.org/index.php?curre...ml#J+DA/JA
It's a little weird to pull off too, but at least you are pressing attack.

I'm all for non-conditional inputs

But lf2 is packed with conditional inputs. If it were not you would only have movement and 3 basic actions, just one for each button.

I don't mean to say it is impossible to make combos, but I really think the flipping system really makes it hard to make combos. Are you sure that opponent cannot flip during the combos you are mentioning, thus ruining the combo?
A combo that your opponent can react to (after the first attack of course) and escape, isn't really a combo, that is a mind game.
Though, mind games can be favourable, that I won't deny.

Actually I think unbreakable combos just turn a fighting game into a ddr/piano game as soon as the combo starts. That puts only the attacker into the actively playing position while the other player sits down passively waiting for a mistake.
The flipping system is a great way to branch out combos - even in a very simple way. If you are fighting a good player it often won't matter whether you flip or not, they will keep you locked in their combo anyway (even if you changed it's direction by flipping, but that can be a mistake and actually make the combo longer).

The only way to combo is to keep going upwards into the air, unless you use effects of some kind.
Though, I am certainly no expert at LF2-character design neither do I have much experience with combos in LF2, so I look forward to your suggestions when you have had a chance to try him.

Well - another option is to anticipate the opponents flip. What can your character do to deal with it? Maybe perform the "Spectre Kick II"? That may end the combo early as he knocks down the landing opponent or misses in case he rolls away, but in either case it prevents you from being open so early on.

[支倉凍砂]

I'm so bad at keeping my word.
After my trip to Europe I kind of got caught up with real life I guess. That is my excuse.

The day before yesterday I felt a sudden must-mod-lf2 and so here I am again.
And it's shaping up.

not having to press attack to perform a basic attack is just weird.
You could instead use a double key input

I'll definately look into this more now, as I don't use JJ much in combos anymore.
It might be useful more as a air-to-ground move, as JA is really bad at that.

Actually I think unbreakable combos just turn a fighting game into a ddr/piano game as soon as the combo starts. That puts only the attacker into the actively playing position while the other player sits down passively waiting for a mistake. ...

another option is to anticipate the opponents flip.

While I certainly agree that combos can't go on forever, I really think that 5-second combos should be in a fighting game. It gives the active player chance to emphasise the advantage he got from the original hit. Without combos a fighting game just turns into pure hit-and-run (especially when there is no okizeme). For the record, I despise Same Fighter.
I do like "tech traps" (fooling opponent to "flip" the wrong way), but it isn't for Walker. Maybe my next project.


So, what have I done the last two days?
Well, most things have changed somewhat and he finally got his counterattack.

Walker 2.00
sneak peak numbers in red
new stuff in green

JA
20*2 damage, fall: 41

● time between attacks is 1F (3F)
● active time for second attack is 1F (3F), total recovery stays the same

JJ
30 damage, bdefend: 10 (50), fall: 30 (60)

● cancels into air specials 6F～

D→A: "Phantom Dash"
10MP

● total move 12F (18F)
● low hurtbox 4F～9F
● can input follow-up 4F～8F
● now keeps momentum after move finishes

D→AA: "Phantom Punch"
10MP, 35 (30) damage, fall: 70

● renamed
● no longer fixed start-up from Phantom Dash, 6F～10F+4F start-up (10F+4F)
● low hurtbox 1F～3F
● less forward momentum

JD↓A: "Spectre Kick"
25 (20) MP, 65 (50) damage, bdefend: 60, fall: 70

● 5F+7F (5F+6F) startup, 2F (3F) active, 8F (7F) recovery
● invulnerable 1F～8F

JD↑A: "Spectre Punch"
15MP (30MP), 50 (90) damage, bdefend: 20 (60), fall: 70

Semi-new move! Instead of a kick downwards it is a punch downwards. Has a narrow, but tall hitbox. On hit you will bounce of opponent, Super Mario-style. Opponent can always flip out of JA > Spectre Kick, but never JA > Spectre Punch because of its quick start-up. A close-up JJ combos to this attack as well.
● 5F+3F (5F+7F) startup, 2F (3F) active, 9F (7F) recovery

D→G: "Phantom Guard"
20MP

New move! However, as I haven't talked to Gad for quite a while I have reused other animations for the counterattack, but I think it looks quite nice. Before I made the throw-part of the move I threw in the ability to counter with Phantom Punch, and it is still there.
This time around you can properly be punished for using it, but I also manage to make it instant.
● 1F start-up, 10F active, 10F recovery
● counters all blockable attacks
● follow-up has 4F start-up, 3F active, 0F recovery and on hit it does 50 damage
● cancel during hitstop to Phantom Punch: this Phantom punch is invulnerable, but is horrible on block


I will readd "jump dash" as you suggested, as soon as I understand how I removed it. I think the data is intact it is probably the fact that it doesn't trigger, but why is that.

I'm all ears for changes to JA and JJ.
If anything else seems overpowering or boring, or if you hate the Mario-jumping tell me so! ; )

Long awaited link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ttn6839kpuyly3....00%5D.rar


By the way, is there a way to create an object that can't leave the screen?

[YinYin]

The downward spectre kick honestly looked better than the punch.
The counter attack simply transforms him into Davis (8011).
The dash doesn't seem to work because you are using 179 as your end frame of the jump. If you end it at 212 it works.
On that note if you fear the hit_j will already trigger in 212 just add hit_j: 210 in frame 210 - or finally get rid of the JJ attack as the input has nothing to do with attacking and together with getting the dash back you also relocate that action to the actual dash attack.

I like the Mario jumping effect. You can actually have something right inside the crouch frames to jump off enemies without fully reaching the ground too - abusing the hit lag for intended motion is great.
The move itself however doesn't look that good as I already said - get in touch with gad asap! :D

By the way, is there a way to create an object that can't leave the screen?

Depends on what it shall do.
If it's just a visual literally not leaving the screen state 9997 (come/move/stay!) will do.
If you need your object to physically stay on stage (not screen), you can only achieve this by respawning it upon leaving the screen.
Just make it hold another object (possibly itself) via wpoint. Once it goes off screen (or disappears) the held object will drop in frame 0.

edit: Also the extended reach using >> to start DvA/D^A is very hard to pull off. (almost impossible to me in an actual fight)
You could simplify the input by only performing the spectre kick via A and drop the downwards punch as it doesn't seem to make much sense at that height anyway(?).

[Gespenst]

man, I should do a char for my self, but cant get into spriting right now


sup team, nice too see new char, like the sprites, somewhere looks strange, bubt mehh.
@Gad, make a stream or something what thouse made with his char clyde, "The way I am making a char"

[Jester]

Is it just me or everyone have data conflict with Davis and Woody? D: Everytime i try to use skills, Walker transforms into Davis, sometime Woody, with glitched animation.

[支倉凍砂]

The downward spectre kick honestly looked better than the punch.

Though Spectre Kick looks ridiculous if you make it 3F start-up.
I hope I can get Gad to make proper graphics.

The counter attack simply transforms him into Davis (8011).

Fixed.

The dash doesn't seem to work because you are using 179 as your end frame of the jump...

I have implemented your JD+A/J input for the punch, and the kick is JA. It works quite well as long as you don't spam.

By the way, is there a way to create an object that can't leave the screen?

If you need your object to physically stay on stage (not screen), you can only achieve this by respawning it upon leaving the screen.
Just make it hold another object (possibly itself) via wpoint. Once it goes off screen (or disappears) the held object will drop in frame 0.

I was thinking if one could add a bouncing-of-the-screen effect on certain attacks.

Also the extended reach using >> to start DvA/D^A is very hard to pull off. (almost impossible to me in an actual fight)
You could simplify the input by only performing the spectre kick via A and drop the downwards punch as it doesn't seem to make much sense at that height anyway(?).

It is quite hard, yes, but I like it. Just →→A for an invulnerable attack is too easy I believe.
Perfectly executed hop Spectre Punch is 4F start-up, only 1F -slower than a normal punch so I believe it should have its uses... against human players. As computers instantly spams A when you get in range it is quite hard to do it against them. I did some hurtbox changes to it, so it might work better now.


Version 2.01: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dkmfjvs0ra4nrg....01%5D.rar

[YinYin]

I have implemented your JD+A/J input for the punch, and the kick is JA. It works quite well as long as you don't spam.

Yeah the input for those two is amazing now. I press A for the kick and hold A for the punches. However I feel that the kick is too powerful by inflicting dance of pain. It makes it too easy to grab opponents. I think you either need to make it knock the opponent out or only send to the second injury frames.
Actually you probably have this to hit falling characters but not knock out standing ones so here is how you could possibly have both:
Separate the itr into two frames: first itr has a low fall value an a certain arest, this one will hit non falling characters and push them away without knocking them out (because this actually feels great);
second itr will have a high fall value to hit falling opponents (but it won't trigger if the first itr hit due to its arest).

I was thinking if one could add a bouncing-of-the-screen effect on certain attacks.

Certainly, if the object going off screen always has the same sense of direction (always going forwards or backwards) then the dropped object too will always have the same direction. So you could let it start in a bounce off animation.

It is quite hard, yes, but I like it. Just →→A for an invulnerable attack is too easy I believe. I believe it should have its uses... against human players. As computers instantly spams A when you get in range it is quite hard to do it against them. I did some hurtbox changes to it, so it might work better now.

I tend to forget invulnerability when I test things for input difficulty. I wouldn't mind having a fully vulnerable version that is easier to pull off. (not to mention most of the time I face bots - sometimes pretty smart custom AI but still ...)
The input could also get easier if you gave the little hop some more air time.

Also the Phantom Guard is awesome. I think it could last a little longer though, maybe even start to wait in a loop between the guarding state and one with state 0 so you stop defending by walking away any time you like.

[支倉凍砂]

Is it just me or everyone have data conflict with Davis and Woody? D: Everytime i try to use skills, Walker transforms into Davis, sometime Woody, with glitched animation.

Fixed in 2.01.

However I feel that the kick is too powerful by inflicting dance of pain. It makes it too easy to grab opponents.
Actually you probably have this to hit falling characters but not knock out standing ones so here is how you could possibly have both:
Separate the itr into two frames

I have implemented this for the jump kick (hereby JK), but I think I'll just make JP to always cause knockdown.

I was thinking if one could add a bouncing-of-the-screen effect on certain attacks.

Certainly, if the object going off screen always has the same sense of direction (always going forwards or backwards) then the dropped object too will always have the same direction. So you could let it start in a bounce off animation.

So, I make an object (type: 0?) and make it hold an special item and it will drop the item upon leaving the screen, and from there I can do whatever I want?

It is quite hard, yes, but I like it. Just →→A for an invulnerable attack is too easy I believe.

I tend to forget invulnerability when I test things for input difficulty. I wouldn't mind having a fully vulnerable version that is easier to pull off. The input could also get easier if you gave the little hop some more air time.

I'd rather add a specific hop attack than changing the command.
I upped the dvy with 1 and the airtime increased from 7F to 10F, so maybe that works better for you.

With the increased height hop SP works better as a jump-in as well.

Also the Phantom Guard is awesome. I think it could last a little longer though, maybe even start to wait in a loop between the guarding state and one with state 0 so you stop defending by walking away any time you like.

I thought PG was too strong and that I'd have to halve the active frames. (ｏ.ｏ')

[YinYin]

So, I make an object (type: 0?) and make it hold an special item and it will drop the item upon leaving the screen, and from there I can do whatever I want?

type 0 are characters - they either cannot leave the stage or won't disappear. Items or blasts (type 3) however will disappear.
You can spawn and hold (opoint kind 2) anything with a wpoint so it doesn't have to be an item (can be the same object that flies off to disappear).
And yes you can do whatever you want from the dropping frame 0 onwards.

[支倉凍砂]

Thanks, I got it to work somehow. If you are close to the corner Spectre Kick will bounce them back to you.
The +3F hop is in this patch, as well as new kind of Phantom Guard > Phantom Punch.

Note that I have changed the IDs so you will need to update your data.txt

Walker 2.02: https://www.dropbox.com/s/a852pw025whrob....02%5D.rar

What I am thinking of now:

1. increasing distance and/or duration of Phantom Dash
   
2. adding either a high-damaging ground move or another move to help with space control
   
3. increasing normal jump height
   
4. increasing hop distance
   
5. adding zwidth to Spectre Punch
   
6. increasing damage of P and SP, but decreasing damage for JP
   
7. increase damage of SK, and maybe SP too
   
8. adding some wall bounce to JK