[Version] LF2 Remake (Updated 12/27/13)

[A-Man]

im just thinking, what does the prime characters really mean in the game? what are their roles?
since you have remade a whole lot of the originals, so you can say there are "remade version", while the prime have features from both original and remade versions, they dont seem to be important, as this is LF2-Remake, so they just doesnt have a reason to be there. why not have more special characters(like June/Julia) to replace the primes?

What are you saying!? They are somewhat different in a useful way! Prime Davis, for instance, is faster, but causes less HP when attacking. It pretty much gives you more choice as a player who likes sticking to one favorite character.

[Nyamaiku]

Prime Davis, for instance, is faster, but causes less HP when attacking. It pretty much gives you more choice as a player who likes sticking to one favorite character.

are you sure? if i didnt remember wrongly, prime characters resemble originals more, which means davis prime has stronger attacks. but what you said have a point too. it gives more choice to players. but then, it just seem strange when 2 of the same characters are in the game without much difference. and when i said not much difference, i mean they look exactly the same.
just take Ryu from street fighter as an example. im sure everybody who played street fighter know there is a black version of Ryu, which was almost the same as Ryu. while their moves are mostly the same, you can easily know which one is Ryu and which one is the altered version.

[Dragon5]

Prime Davis is actually faster AND stronger than Remake Davis. He has less delay to his moves and has a slightly higher damage output in the third release. However, he has a much higher MP consumption. If I had another move for Remake Davis, then there would be more difference between between the two characters. He's going to have a lower damage output in the next version since I find him too good. I admit I have a very hard time balancing him.

About Ryu and Evil Ryu: Evil Ryu is more of an Akuma version of Ryu with moves such as Shoryu Reppa, Shungoku Satsu, and sometimes even teleporting. He is generally considered to be stronger than Ryu himself most of the time. That's not the case with Prime characters though. I plan to deviate Remake characters enough to give me room to make a version to resemble closer to Regular LF2. Think of it like SSF2 Turbo where you have the choice to choose between Regular and Turbo characters, but balanced a little more thoroughly.

Edit: Prime characters are not too important to me, I still need to balance them. I'll have them become unlockable when I finish the game. They're not a priority of mine since I want to finish the core game. They are to give players an extra treat and increase the character roster.

[Dragon5]

Balancing a boss with hardly any moves:

LouisEX was incredibly strong because he had priority and low-cost moves. He had a fast move that had reach, and a costless combo that took out 25% of someone's health. He didn't have much, but that doesn't matter when he has unruly mobility and damage. Toning a character down such as him to be balanced would make him incredibly boring. Why would you want to use a character that has an incredibly linear playstyle with a limited disposal of moves when there are many others that have more options than him? Sure he can be buffed to accommodate that weakness, but this game isn't anywhere as deep as Tekken to do something like that (Jin on Tekken 3 was very easy to use but he had a very small moveset, weakening his mixup game). Giving LouisEX a new move would be better for him.

It was originally going to have him utilize his energy into his weapon, but it became a simple thrust after some discussion with the community. This move would help him plow through enemies and also catch the opponent recovering from Phoenix Dance. He also has z-movement when doing it from Phoenix Dance in case the opponent decides to flip sideways. The guessing game is a new aspect that will probably need close attention to balance. His new thrust isn't as strong as his regular swing and it is somewhat slow, so don't rely on it too much!


Protip to players: If the opponent isn't dizzied before doing this combo, it won't work unless the opponent tries to flip out as shown above. Dizzying the opponent allows this combo to work if he does not flip, but the extra height allows the opponent to time his flip and avoid LouisEX's final hit regardless if he swings or thrusts.


I'm close to making a new release. Besides character balancing, I updated AnDi's sprites with Nya and touched up the exe to look MUCH better. Any feedback on the move or in-general would be appreciated. I wish I knew how to make better AI, or at least have them learn how to flip properly, much because this game relies on proper evasion to be effective. If you don't know how to dodge properly (or at least dodge), the you are pretty much asking to be punished when you have a two-out-of-three chance most of the time to safely recover from your opponent's attacks.

[Nyamaiku]

His new thrust isn't as strong as his regular swing and it is somewhat slow, so don't rely on it too much!

Protip to players: If the opponent isn't dizzied before doing this combo, it won't work unless the opponent tries to flip out as shown above. Dizzying the opponent allows this combo to work if he does not flip, but the extra height allows the opponent to time his flip and avoid LouisEX's final hit regardless of the move chosen.

umm...so why bother using the move? i would not trade extra mp for a weaker attack. if it is somewhat slow and doesnt deal that much damage, i would rather stick to normal attacking.
and judging from the action of the thrust, maybe he should send the enemies flying farther away, not just fall down.

dunno why but i like watching that animation again and again

[Dragon5]

Response to Nyamaiku (Click to View)

umm...so why bother using the move? i would not trade extra mp for a weaker attack. if it is somewhat slow and doesnt deal that much damage, i would rather stick to normal attacking.
and judging from the action of the thrust, maybe he should send the enemies flying farther away, not just fall down.

Swing does 50. Thrust does 45 first frame and the second frame is 55 (when his spear is fully extended). It all depends on the distance to determine which frame will hit, the first one being more likely most of the time. I have improved the force for the thrust. Also, Thrust doesn't cost as much MP when done from Phoenix Dance to prevent his MP from being drained too fast.

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Build 4 is now released. It is a test version to get more feedback and improve on. My motivation has been dropping a little lately and I don't want to abandon this project. The best thing to do is get enough done to show off and work on it from there after getting some feedback.
Download Here

The major changes are as follows:

• Vastly improved menu look
  
• June, Rudolf, LouisEX, 'Dennis, and 'Woody are added along with the first five minor characters
  
• Firzen has been removed for now
  
• Stage 1 is a WIP for more than 1 player
  
• Projectile-lock infinites are harder to execute
  
• Julian now has separate, faster punches and uses his guard for certain moves
  
• AnDi (Anti-Davis) has been remade by Nyamaiku while we both touched up his sprites. His breathing animation still needs to be fixed...
  
• June plays nothing like on BX-LF2, given a brand new style based from her EX form
  

I need help with AI to flip properly. They hardly flip at all and leave themselves open a lot when they have the opportunity to flip sideways and likely get out of the way. Without that, the AI is pretty much weak.

[Nyamaiku]

finally, after a long wait...and im leaving soon, so im a bit anxious to try the newest version i must say.
regarding your AI flip problem, i think you should just leave that alone.
since if you need the AI to see what move to flip out of, it would be a whole lot of trouble.
if you manage to overcome all those trouble, the AI would be so great at flipping that they will flip out of every combo. then we, as humans (who are of course smarter) would always just use flip-counter combos.

[Dragon5]

finally, after a long wait...and im leaving soon, so im a bit anxious to try the newest version i must say.
regarding you AI flip problem, i think you should just leave that alone.
since if you need the AI to see what move to flip out of, it would be a whole lot of trouble.
if you manage to overcome all those trouble, the AI would be so great at flipping that they will flip out of every combo. then we, as humans (who are of course smarter) would always just use flip-counter combos.

I made the release mainly for you. You've done so much for me you deserve something before you have to go.
I want the AI to be able to learn how to flip like a human rather than smartly. I could purposely make a flaw in the AI that makes them not as perfect as they could such as flipping when they are not far enough away.. Maybe I can make it Crazy-only if necessary, but right now the game doesn't feel as hard since the AI does not know how to use its character to the fullest.

[Nyamaiku]

sniff...im feeling kind of huggy right now...
i should snuggle up to my dakimakura~

okay, suggestions as always (Click to View)

@rudolf (i got to say, i love rudolf's new double blade. its so cool~)
-his Ninja Strike should not cost mp when performed normally. this attack always puts himself in danger as its easy to hit him during this move. maybe he should consume mp only when he performs this move during run+D

@bat
-Aerial Summon is not worthy compared to Summon. the bats uses too much time to move down to the enemies. so they would be too little chasing and results in misses. and if you perform this move too late, you might waste huge amount of mp for nothing. also, this move should consume the same mp as Summon.

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edit:

more suggestions (Click to View)

@louisEX
-the Phoenix Claw attack isnt worth using at all...maybe you can give the wind effect an itr of effect:4(it only hit objects). since the effect has a state of 3005, it can destroy balls shot at him. thus giving this move some reason to be used more.

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and i found that some wpoints still need fixing, eh?

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i forgot to mention: give the effect of Phoenix Claw a state 3005. this should stop it from moving up and down.

[STM1993]

Just found this from your sig. Thought I'd download it and give much-needed feedback. These my first impressions while testing each character against Bandit:

• Nice, I love the new rolling, it feels very smooth and you can roll out of lying too but without any invincibility. However, it looks awkward graphically to instantly be walking right after rolling.
  
• Generally lower mana costs feel much less restrictive. Dash attacks are greatly nerfed, but still really important in stage mode because multiple enemies and the slower move execution time. Check all characters' jump attacks; I've noticed multiple cases of holding A leading to attempting to land a 2nd hit.
  
• Any reason why Davis can't go into leap attack with "J" but can still do so with D^J?
  
• Damn, grab+DvA no longer works. D^A can hit twice if you're close enough or backed enemy into a wall, otherwise one hit. Can't use DvA and then D^A after last hit unless enemy is into a wall. Davis' D>A seems very effective.
  
• I like how Woody can combo >>JA or D>A with D>J. Pity his DvA didn't feel much better.
  
• Dennis. The new grab and additional version of D>J, but pity D>J is now weaker against projectiles. D^J isn't that great on its own, but it works nicely with D^A. I honestly don't think it needs a prime version.
  
• Freeze's >>JA is now a stun? Seems a bit powerful since it can initiate a lot of combos. Also like how his ice sword will break in 2 drops.
  
• Looking good for Firen. However, I always question why Firen should lose HP when using his explosion.
  
• Definitely an improvement for Louis, though it'd take a while to get used to the slightly different timing in sound effect for thunder punch. I didn't find the parry too useful, but it helps get you off pressure and his armor is now a much bigger advantage than before.
  
• Rudolf's new walking speed feels so much better, and with his ninja star damage lowered his D>A spam doesn't seem so overpowered anymore.
  
• Henry doesn't feel so ridiculous at kiting anymore, but his new arrows make Hunters' arrow spam much more dangerous in stage mode actually. Kinda disliked his new dashback shot because it looked awkward. Was hoping his throw can combo into D>A better. His flute has a sprite error in his belt, making him see-through there.
  
• Deep seems to hit harder but is slower. I like how his D>A pushes back when in melee range and his D>J on grab.
  
• What's AnDi's DOP+J? Can't figure out that combination.
  
• Bat feels very stiff with his dvx 550 frames in his crouch and D>J. His DvJ is terrible; the sprites don't match the suggested biting effect and the moving animation should be more of a walk than a run at that kind of speed, and healing-wise it is a waste to bite more than once especially with that heavy mana cost. I also noticed that you have yet to make Grab+DvA smooth(in case you didn't know, Bat can speed punch on grab). Why does Heel Drop need MP?
  
• LouisEX... damn he's as clumsy as Louis. I have two issues: grab+D>J causes him to use D>A backwards. His D>A also looks awkward without the original ending transition frames between the move and standing. Make the jump attack last frame last longer, I still see him try to swing if I old down A. His >>JA seems to execute way too fast. Back Thrust's fall doesn't match the animation imo.
  
• June's super doesn't feel as smooth as Julian's. Jump attack ends too early. Sprite black spots in injured frames. Awkward transition between punches in run attack. Mirror Image(>>D) is useless against the AI.
  
• Julian's >>D is useless against AI. I can live with his slow speed if it weren't also for the fact that he lost all of his armor while still retaining his massive size, which makes him pathetically weak and unable to play a good range game. Awkward uppercut.

As someone suggested previously, you might also want to try looking at improving the sub-characters. Not only will it complete the mod, it might also help you with looking at the bigger picture balance-wise.

For example:
[attachment=3154]
Here's a minor personal modification I've made for Justin.
I found Justin's DvA wolf punch to be a very poor move. It has a very long startup time and you're pretty much screwed if the enemy blocks. So I modified Justin's wolf punch: his first frame has shorter wait and state 7, give some extra effect 4 itrs on a few frames, he can move along z-axis and his 2nd hit can be used backwards. Suddenly, Justin's wolf punch becomes a devastating guard-breaking attack on par with the heroes' DvA. If the first punch doesn't hit twice to break block, his 2nd punch can strike you in the back. In addition, I gave the same move an extra D>J input so it is even better for left-right control. You don't have to make a new move for a character, simply make the same move have more technical use.

EDIT:
For Firzen, here's my thoughts: why would you want to fuse in the first place? Because you are both low on health and need to deal with the crowd. From here you can go two ways: either make Firzen a defensive character who doesn't do much damage but excellent at preventing enemies from getting near him or make him a glass cannon who casts from HP and uses MP to heal dark HP. He already has the 3 base moves for either direction, and he can work better than Julian as a keep at bay character.