RaMafia Special - The End

[Apocalipsis]

Even though you keep comparing mafia abilities to civilians'.

The fact that I compare mafia abilities to civilians doesn't imply that I think that they must be balanced.

There were some posts in page 58 that made me think that people were calling the game broken, because there was not balance among individuals.
I think that the opposite of that (unbalanced abilities among individuals) is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a game to be called "balanced". If abilities are balanced at an individual-level, they are not balanced at a faction-level, since Mafias are a minority. So, you always have to make an explicit or implicit comparison between them if you want a balanced game.

Also, Even if darl didnt have power to convert, no way 95% mafia winning. Nave already died, cosmic died. vigilante known. After checking enough people, we would eventually realise the rats. 2 mafia aint winning vs like 10 townies.
And if amadis kept his mouth shut and agreed with darl, monk side could have an edge but still, i was planning to sacrifice darl to reveal somebpdy's identity anyways and if monk dies, whole faction fails. your 95%town loss is borken.

My not safe list wasnt bulletproof and townies knew it. I even put coroner to townie part in one of my posts after you revealed so. And appc and ariel never stopped suspecting amadis. there you go. They would eventually kill amadis and only 1 mafia jernemis left. even if he keeps killing, i dont give him too much chances. All I did was transparent and documented. My mighty townies would figure out.

Ok, I agree with Ramond now, you need to get off your horse. The fact that you don't see how much chances the mafias/cult had before the revealing is surprising.

It's true that I would get Amadis killed eventually, but Jernemies? Not a chance to figure him out without Ariel.

You're probably thinking "But how can Jernemies/Darl win this alone?". Remember that if we were to fail on the day lynch, it would mean 2 dead players for that phase (day/night). Also remember that when Rhino is killed, the lynching is skipped.

---

What I think would have happened:
Day 4 - Klodasmone dies (I would have pushed it in that direction)
Night 4 - mfc dies (No more alignment checking)
Day 5 - Ariel dies (Everyone suspected him except me)
Night 5 - Rhino dies (Double kill), MangaD is converted (Because of his abilities)
Night 6 - A-Man dies (So Jernemies could stop roleblocking him)
Day 7 - Amadis dies (I would have guided the town against him after Ariel's lynching)
Night 7 - EF dies, Darl converts me or Simoneon

At this point, the players alive would be (let's assume I'm converted):
Jernemies - Cop - Mafia (Monk's faction)
Apoc - Necromancer - Citizen (Monk's faction)
MangaD - Governor - Citizen (Monk's faction)
PF - Artisan - Citizen
Simoneon - Joker - Citizen
Darl - Monk - Independent (Monk's faction)

And it's game over, Monk's faction wins.

[mfc]

Why do you think Amadis letting Monk live? Mafia could have killed Monk in the night to prevent further conversions.

2nd option: I could keep silent and force him to convert me, letting town lose but win game for myself with monk.

Monk faction is so weird for me, what happens to converted people after his death? Do they simply lose as independent?

And finally, I AM NOT RIDING ANY HORSES, I AM A WALKING MONK, NOT A MISSIONARY.

And I don't really like writing down scenarios like that because it's way too chaotic, Things may look like that to you but people can change their minds so drastically over small things. I really dont like the way you try to predict for that reason, we are not oracles.

lol don maybe add an Oracle role.

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And yes, there is one more option;

Me and amadis talk and decide we both join to monk side, Mafia doesnt kill anybody, we dont lynch anybody and everyone wins as Monk Faction. Aint that lovely?

[Apocalipsis]

Why do you think Amadis letting Monk live? Mafia could have killed Monk in the night to prevent further conversions.

Because Jernemies was already converted and Klodasmone was inactive. Amadis only reasonable option was for him to wait, as he couldn't get the majority of votes for the kill at night. And we are assuming that Amadis didn't double cross Darl, otherwise the scenario would be what really happened xD

Monk faction is so weird for me, what happens to converted people after his death? Do they simply lose as independent?

After analyzing it for a bit, I think they retain Monk's winning condition. Otherwise it would be almost impossible for Darl to win this game.

And I don't really like writing down scenarios like that because it's way too chaotic, Things may look like that to you but people can change their minds so drastically over small things. I really dont like the way you try to predict for that reason, we are not oracles.

True in most cases. But here I think it's useful to see how fast those ~10 citizens can lose, if you consider Mafia's killings, Town's failed lynchs, and Monk's conversions.

[TheNave]

Fake PMs from the gamemaster(which also inadvertently led to rulebreaking which also wasn't properly enforced)?

how was there any rulebraking with the fake PM ability? I even asked Ramond if I was allowed to send sucha PM and he said it's a risky move but definitly not against the rules


@mfc
really? do you not see how you were on the loosing team at the end? I'm pretty sad we lost now, but not because we lost, but more because you're rubbing that victory of yours in our faces even though you'd have most likely lost if that 3rd party stuff didn't pop up out of nowhere and don't even realise it


@EveryoneElse
So, who's up for a classic no-ghost, no-private talking vanilla thread-only mafia round with cop, doc and godfather as the only special rules? (Ramond you don't have to host that one, I'm sure we can find somebody else to do that + I wanna see you as a player for once :b)

[A-Man]

So, you always have to make an explicit or implicit comparison between them if you want a balanced game.

I think if the factions are balanced, then that would be enough to call the whole thing balanced. It's a team vs team game after all.

PF - Artisan - Citizen
Simoneon - Joker - Citizen
Darl - Monk - Independent (Monk's faction)

And it's game over, Monk's faction wins.

There is still citizens alive, so the winning condition for monks would not be satisfied, and citizens would win.

Anyway, I take responsibility in putting everyone in danger too.

[Ramond]

There is still citizens alive, so the winning condition for monks would not be satisfied, and citizens would win.

Anyway, I take responsibility in putting everyone in danger too.

I need to clear things up. Game would NOT end if Mafia faction simply was killed. Game would continue with no night kills, but since Monk can only recruit every 2 nights, Town should have the upper hand except if they don't know who actually got converted.

In this specific case, Jernemies (Mafia) was still alive and could still kill during night, so he would simply kill off the remaining non-converted players.

[mfc]

If Darl didn't have ability to convert, the list apoc made doesnt makes sense.
Do you want me to write a town-winning event list for that?

If Darl can convert;
If Amadis decides to kill town until the end and win as Monk team, yes, I would lose.
If Amadis talks to me and we both join Monk faction, I would win as Monk team.

Town most likely lost if 3rd faction wasnt there???
2 mafias winning vs 10 townies, counting monk cannot convert, amadis was already suspected by someone I for sure knew was town.
You see on my list simon and apoc has 99 and 98 but they were actually more trusted due to their proved passives.
You always think of game rolling as people lynching the red-orange marked stuff as the time goes but You cannot know that, It's too unpredictable.

I am not blaming mafia, you had an inactive player. We town had 2 of them.

I am not rubbing anything to anybody's faces. You are just too convinced that if monk had no conversion ability mafia would win. And I say you cannot know, I dont give mafia more than 50% chance wwith 2:9/10 didnt count ratio.

[STM1993]

Fake PMs from the gamemaster(which also inadvertently led to rulebreaking which also wasn't properly enforced)?

how was there any rulebraking with the fake PM ability? I even asked Ramond if I was allowed to send sucha PM and he said it's a risky move but definitly not against the rules

The rulebreak I refer to are the events that happened as a result where the GM's words were directly quoted and screenshotted. I don't blame the fake PM ability by itself since it is an issue of players overreacting, although I still believe it was something that players should have been warned to expect or just not exist in the game in the first place precisely because of the panic and distrust in the GM it caused, especially when there's also a secret 3rd faction.

[TheNave]

If Darl didn't have ability to convert, the list apoc made doesnt makes sense.
Do you want me to write a town-winning event list for that?

Yes please do :3

@stm
Oh I agree, sorry I thought you were reffering to the fake isomniac thing

[Apocalipsis]

I think if the factions are balanced, then that would be enough to call the whole thing balanced. It's a team vs team game after all.

And how does one know if the factions are balanced?

There is still citizens alive, so the winning condition for monks would not be satisfied, and citizens would win.

Darl told me that the game would continue even without Mafias left, which is not even the case here... so I don't know what do you mean.
I said "Monk's faction wins" at that point, because Monk's faction would have the majority of the votes and could lynch any unconverted player left during day, or kill them at night.

If Darl didn't have ability to convert, the list apoc made doesnt makes sense.

The fact that we didn't know about Darl having those powers changes nothing, he did have the ability to convert, so everything I said applies.

You are just too convinced that if monk had no conversion ability mafia would win. And I say you cannot know, I dont give mafia more than 50% chance wwith 2:9/10 didnt count ratio.

In the case where the 3rd party doesn't exist, Town would certainly have more chances to win. But that's not what we are talking about here. We started this exchange of perspectives of the game because you didn't believe Ramond's 95% chances of winning for Mafia/Monk's faction (it would be the same faction). That 95% is for the real case, in which Darl can convert.

Edit:

Ramond you don't have to host that one, I'm sure we can find somebody else to do that + I wanna see you as a player for once :b

It would be cool to see Ramond playing, too.