Needs vs Wants

[LutiChris]

So it seems these past few months i've sorta accepted nihilism
And I came across a friend's post...

I need a job

naturally I was inclined to jump right in and structure my thoughts a little clearly.

A Rant (Click to View)

You want* a job

How will the bills be paid without one?

You don't need to pay the bills

... Yes you do. Otherwise you're homeless.

There is nothing wrong with being homeless, you just have to be smart about it. If you so desire to have a roof over your head there are other ways... besides paying the bills

Internet connection, computer, gaming, ability to make my books. That requires money.

You don't need these things. They are all desires that you want.. there are multiple ways to attain these without money

I'm not discounting all requirements. But in these types of cases you can work around them.

I'll also concede you probably won't like the alternatives.. but nonetheless you are still deciding based on your preferences and aren't forced to stick with it just because you "need" to. there are people out there that don't have jobs and still get what they want without resorting to the typical requirements.

Resorting to crime is one of many ways. some people would find it harder to take that option because needless to say it's against their values or they don't want to risk getting caught. To avoid that scenario one could be a little bit more creative and persuade others to do things for you. For the most part i believe there are a lot of possible ways to achieve your goals. Of course people tend to look for the most efficient and easiest path that largely satisfies their desires and remains contingent upon their preferences. So you still want said thing in order to get that thing and vice versa. Even if you don't like it one can say they would tend to go for something like that or prefer it because it is the best option for them (to meet said desire/goal)

It's not about required norms. I'm on the pursuit of happiness, and happiness requires my books to be made.

if you still want to pursue happiness it doesn't necessarily have to be making your books. you can still find many many ways of achieving this goal. it seems to me it would make more sense that you would value your books above all else because this is a worthy achievement to pursue. Because if the most effective way to make your books is to suffer it could be worth it. if one doesn't want to go explore other routes then that means you don't necessarily care if the books make you happy so long as you are happy or comfortable then that is okay too

i think happiness will naturally come once i achieve my goals. It doesn't necessarily mean it will make me happy so long as I think it is meaningful to pursue.

Say someone values the truth so much but it only makes them miserable. If that is their worthy goal and they are quite persistent to attain it then I think that is fine so long as it doesn't interfere against my goals and preferences. Happiness to me feels over rated. There are different levels of happiness but to me achieving your goals seems much more worthwhile since there's virtually unlimited things to do vs feeling one sort of way with varying degrees of stimulating satisfaction.

if you want to take your position even further we could go all the way down to cause and effect or determinism. then there really is no way we can avoid our actions because they were already made for us.

but i think in the context we really were talking about our desires.. which stem from our wants rather than our needs. every time someone tells me they need this or they need that... I'm usually very skeptical. one can argue they are forced to desire such things because there really is no way of avoiding the laws of physics if we have no free will. But it just doesn't seem pragmatic to me to ignore the agency of individuals.

My question is... do you agree with my stance or am i misguided in my reasoning?

edit) for the sake of being pragmatic i understand why people use "need" loosely

[A-Man]

You don't need to be a criminal to get money. You can get it by other ways: a job, for example.

You don't need to steal food to live. You can buy food with money.

But I think we all agree we need food, are you seeing what I mean?

There are many different possible ways which different advantages and trade offs. One will make you unwanted by the society, insecure because you never know when one of those you "tricked" will strike for vengeance and a fairly unstable life overall. The other option is the opposite of that, but it requires some prerequisites and preparations such as education.

Your friend's "want" stems from a need, not a desire. Your argument is just you trying to sound overly pedantic. I mean, I could say "you don't need food. you need protein, vitamins ..etc".

And either way, you really need counseling man.

[MangaD]

That is a rather nihilistic view as you said.

You could also affirm that happiness is a state of mind.

However, the needs and wants are intrinsically connected.

You need* to eat. No. You want* to eat. You need* to eat because you want* to survive.

But do you need* to survive in order to be happy? Not necessarily.

Following this philosophy, you'll end up miserable and will die miserable.

It is in the human nature to strive and ambition. We always want more.

Had we not been made like this, we would have been extinct long time ago.

Now, it is up to you whether you want to live or not (assuming you don't live just because).

[STM1993]

Well, taking "need" to the logical extreme: A person doesn't NEED to live either, but if he wants to live, then he'll need to eat breathe, eat, sleep etc. Basically, a need is a possibly unwanted prerequisite for a preferred desired outcome ("want").

In your friend's case, you could say he needs a job in order to achieve a desired lifestyle with his books without compromising on other wants he has, based on what limited knowledge he has.

I would also argue the pursuit of happiness is inevitable because human action is inherently selfish. A goal exists precisely because its a desired outcome. If you can't say that you are happy to be pursuing a goal, then I can say that you either lack the conviction or simply mistook your desire for something else.

Judging from the last bit, it comes across to me that your criticism of need & happiness is mostly directed at people who appear to have shallow goals rather than having a grand world-changing scheme. I'm not saying the criticism is wrong, but it seems misdirected towards the concept of happiness.

[LutiChris]

You need* to eat. No. You want* to eat. You need* to eat because you want* to survive.
But do you need* to survive in order to be happy? Not necessarily.
Following this philosophy, you'll end up miserable and will die miserable.
It is in the human nature to strive and ambition. We always want more.

People can still follow such a philosophy and still have positive optimism without feeling miserable or dying in the process.
I think the stereotypical nihilist makes the mistake of saying everything is pointless when all their subjective preferences stem from their biological desires and to me I think that these are important to us so its not entirely pointless unless we are talking about the grand scheme of things like its some intrinsic universal purpose to it.

Some people also think dying is better... so there's that. (I disagree if you've taken a look at some other threads i've done on transhumanism)

Your friend's "want" stems from a need, not a desire.

But this is a biological desire. Almost every reason I can think of comes down to wanting things even if you don't desire it you prefer this certain outcome because it is beneficial and in line with everything that will lead you to your desired goals.

And either way, you really need counseling man.

Why would you say that?

but if he wants to live, then he'll need to eat breathe, eat, sleep etc. Basically, a need is a possibly unwanted prerequisite for a preferred desired outcome ("want").

I understand that. If there are no alternative ways to reach a specific goal then yes i'll concede that it is a need (because it is unavoidable)
Hopefully this too will change...
If there are many options available to you in order to fulfill your specific desires then i consider that as wanting that specific outcome not needing because it can be avoided. If I want to take a plane to india right this very second without a ticket I can't because I need the ticket and doing it right this second is impossible. So I need to follow a certain order to get what I want (even if you have your own private jet/plane you are still subject to the laws of physics with the type of limited speeds an aircraft can go - ie: you'll need* to wait to get to your destination)

And yes people don't need to live. If someone wants to live then they need to do maintain their body but how they do it... well there are many ways to do that.

[A-Man]

But this is a biological desire. Almost every reason I can think of comes down to wanting things even if you don't desire it you prefer this certain outcome because it is beneficial and in line with everything that will lead you to your desired goals.

Define "need". What you're doing is really just wordplay.

Why would you say that?

Nothing certain, just out of worry; especially since we know how your life has recently changed. I thought maybe something like this was related to your post. Also, maybe a professional will give you the talk you want. Please don't take this negatively. I think I need counseling too from time to time.

[Som1Lse]

I personally think your definition of "need" is off.

If you want to be specific with "need" then you would use the form "X needs Y because Z" (or similar). For example "I need food because I want to survive", and yes, that is a correct use of "need", because my goal of surviving needs food, it cannot be accomplished without it. With the sentence "I need a job", the reasoning is implicit, and only necessary if you can't figure it out yourself, which your original post clearly demonstrated you could. Also, take a closer look at my first example. Technically all I need is nutrition but that sentence has an extra implicit reason on top of the already explicit one "I need food because I want to survive and food is the easiest way to gain nutrition which I need to survive".

The thing is if we made everything explicit we would never get anywhere. Heck the meaning of all the words I am writing here is implicit, and if I had to define everything before I wrote it I would not even be able to start, so if you are going to be a pedant, which I would definitely encourage, please be a pedant where it matters (such as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10).

[mfc]

You live in a world full 7 billion special snowflake humans who think their lives are such very precious. I am one of them.

You are a chunk of meat capable of strong intelligence given to you for free and you are lucky.

You live in a world of rules. Therefore crime is something you should try not to resort. Because punishments.

You are capable of going out of your comfort zone and achieve your greater place among people who achieves less. And be a positive member of society.

Recommended help those who are on lower social statuses than you but not mandatory, your empathy towards other meatbags should be your guide there.

All of the great things in this world is achieved by Combined Effort of all humanity. And do not underestimate that. No matter what world view ruleset you try to follow, try to be a part of the SOCIETY.

Follow your own rules at some points but don't be stubborn against whole world, try to adapt, to blend in and synchronize with the people around you no matter HOW they think. It will make life easier for you.

"You don't need a job"
"You don't need computers"
"You don't need x"

These are useless statements. You don't know what he needs better than he does. Of course he needs a job. Because he has a determined path of his own for his pursuit of happiness and it has MONEYS at the center of it. Like the rest of most of people. You can rant as much as you want but if i need my cake, i need it. No need for word-plays for differentiating the meaning game for 'need' and 'want'.

There is nothing wrong with being homeless

Believe me there is...
Do you honestly believe this? Haven't you hesitated even one little bit before typing this?
I am pretty sure USA is a country of states capable of letting people work somehow and sheltering them. Go to closest police station and tell them you need support, you are willing to work and they will surely will try to direct you to somewhere right to fix.

No house = You can get shanked while sleeping and nobody might know who did it(not like it matters after you die)

Absolutely low life standards. We invent electricity, we invent world full of electrical devices. And you think there is nothing wrong with living without them.

I would understand it if you were my grandmother who cannot read or write in any language (i guess called illiterate). But from someone like you, sorry, I don't understand. I really do feel sorry about you :/

People used to trade without money in the past. They exchanged valuable tools they made with each other, collected food from farms, animals, it was a simpler world. An old world of trades. Then money got invented and now world works with it.
"Pff I don't need money" <-- if you say this you live in a couple millennia forward than you should be living in

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Sorry but the way you talk reminds me of a song i really like (no offense really)

Spoiler (Click to View)

I want to be a hippy and I want to get stoned. I want to run away got to leave home.

Even if you lived in old world, you would be complaining you don't need to craft axes or to hunt or to farm. Go live alone then. Even monkeys live as herds. This is where evolution brought almost all animals. Living as packs. But you are way too special to be a part of it from whatever I read.

[A-Man]

You live in a world of rules. Therefore crime is something you should try not to resort. Because punishments.

I can see what would come next. "What if you can avoid the punishments?"

But I like the bit about human life being a collective effort, which we should all respect. Civilizations would never have been born if it wasn't for these rules and people helping each other.  


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As for the happiness, I believe it's something that's purely subjective. Being successful can lead to happiness, sure, but only if this success is what YOU see as success. I mean if someone is going to be happy being a plumber, you shouldn't look down on him. That's not having a low standard. Somebody has got to do this stuff. But of course, only if HE believes so, and not because that's his only option.

@v: Hey, show some love for Luigi too =D

[mfc]

You live in a world of rules. Therefore crime is something you should try not to resort. Because punishments.

I can see what would come next. "What if you can avoid the punishments?"

Good luck being a stealthy criminal, it seems our world needs more invasion of privacy and more monitoring. I predict It will happen eventually.

As for the happiness, I believe it's something that's purely subjective. Being successful can lead to happiness, sure, but only if this success is what YOU see as success. I mean if someone is going to be happy being a plumber, you shouldn't look down on him. That's not having a low standard. Somebody has got to do this stuff. But of course, only if HE believes so, and not because that's his only option.

Don't look down on anyone, that is a part of "blending in" process, to respect everyone with a functioning brain on top.

A plumber can have his high standards of life, from his own perspective. Hell Mario™ is one of the world's most famous characters and he is a plumber.

Everyone has their own paths to achieve stuff, choose one for yourself