Abortion

[LutiChris]

Baby didn't developed conscious yet so it's stupid to empathize with it

I still do think it is callous to simply throw away a conceived child just because you don't want to have a one. We know very little to nothing about the nature of consciousness. What if that's the only chance for the person and it's thrown away?

People should not do a quick descisions ... they still should make a descision to wait and give a birth

I'm totally for waiting. Making hasty decisions isn't a wise thing to do.

After the birth, they can atleast allow baby to live in the adoption services (if possible).

Yes, of course! I'm totally for that. There are many parents that can't have children and would want to raise one in a good house.

The thing that makes people make abortions is the fear of responsability.

Well, Besides the obvious reasons for - genetic, medical, rape, and incest - and considering if the girl is far too young or if the parent is in a state of poverty... these are the main things that make women decide to abort the child (most of these are usually out of their hands)

Another thing about poverty... in underdeveloped parts of the world such as countries in Africa, the Middle-East (especially India), and China, people really need to take birth control and sexual education extremely seriously.

There are far too many people being born in those places only to live in misery and have a short life expectancy.

what is the possible way to have sex without impregnating the lady? I can only think of using a condom to prevent that.

None that I know of.

Umm there's multiple contraception's for women as well as for guys. Condoms are only 1 / 20 possible choices to prevent pregnancies from occuring. Each with their own category of how successful it is. They even came out with this new surgical device that closes off the spermatic ducts with an easy on-&-off switch as well as the 10 year plan.

Even though i identified being pro-choice i don't like the fact that there's this label at all. It's not like i'm anti-life. It creates this unnecessary issue and forms two extremes on each side. In some cases this doesn't leave room for any further considerations within the topic.

[STM1993]

For me there are several layers of issues for accepting legal abortion:

First, there's the health cases where a pregnancy puts the mother in danger and by extension, the potential child's survival. When that happens, an abortion would be in the best interests to preserve the most number of lives - in this case preserving the mother's life instead of going down the road of having no mother and no child.

Second, when things become illegal, those services will go underground where they cannot be regulated. People do get desperate enough to do stuff like using wire clothes hangers to abort their fetuses. I would much rather see abortion be legalized if only so that people can go through the right professionals and paperwork + easier to track than risk having them going to some shady place to do it and end up with a tonne of problems as a result.

Thirdly, even if the full precautions are taken, stuff happens. Therefore, does that mean you should completely abstain from something, in this case sex, just because of that very slim chance of failure? That's not realistic at all, and implies that only people who are rich and capable should ever have sex. Suggesting that a woman should carry through childbirth despite all precautions and simply give the child away for abortion seriously undermines the labour pains and expenses that she must go through to successfully deliver the baby in the first place. I'm not saying that abortion by itself can't any less scarring to a woman, but I am saying that the woman is in a lose-lose situation here. Furthermore, if the mother is unable to provide a good, loving home for her child for any reason, especially if she can't take care of the child during the pregnancy stage, then wouldn't it be a cruel mercy to allow the foetus to grow up only to have a terrible life? Even more so if it turns out that said child would be born with a disease or disability.

For these reasons I support abortion even though I agree that adoption would be morally optimal. A quick google search suggests that adopted kids are actually better off too(I believe since would-be-adopters would be checked and would be ready for such a decision instead of plain luck), but again my main issue is what happens between pregnancy and adoption.

edit: Statistics on adoption rates etc would also be nice.

[A-Man]

That's not realistic at all, and implies that only people who are rich and capable should ever have sex.

Capable does not mean rich; just to have enough, so that in the rare scenario of you ending up with a son/daughter, you're able to provide them with the necessities at least. Otherwise, please keep your rope away from the well.

We know very little to nothing about the nature of consciousness.

This is the real dilemma. I do not want my son/daughter to end up being an orphan either (though that's definitely better than ending their life).

Let's not forget that carelessness is what often results in going with such an option. If it's a case where a lady may lose her life, then that would be fair I guess.

[Som1Lse]

[insertgoodargumentshere]

Basically agree with that.

I would like to add that pregnancy is not an easy thing to go through. It is painful, during the latter stages she would have to be prepared to go to the hospital at short notice, when her water breaks so any event that might last for more than a day is very easily disrupted, not to mention the stress of this lasting FOR NINE MONTHS.

Capable does not mean rich; just to have enough, so that in the rare scenario of you ending up with a son/daughter, you're able to provide them with the necessities at least. Otherwise, please keep your rope away from the well.

This not just implies, but it explicitly states that if you are financially (or otherwise) incapable of raising a child you should not have sex.
This is silly because the stress relief provided by sex would very likely benefit people in financially (or otherwise) tough situations.

[A-Man]

This not just implies, but it explicitly states that if you are financially (or otherwise) incapable of raising a child you should not have sex.

I don't know where you're bringing this from. I'm guessing the rope and the well analogy was not very clear. I am merely suggesting resorting to safer forms/positions of it.

This is silly because the stress relief provided by sex would very likely benefit people in financially (or otherwise) tough situations.

Well then add that to the motivation you get from the thought of raising your child/scene of your child's first moments (which results' I believe should top that of the stress relief), and you're basically a jet.

[Som1Lse]

I don't know where you're bringing this from. I'm guessing the rope and the well analogy was not very clear. I am merely suggesting resorting to safer forms/positions of it.

This part of the paragraph you responded to:

Thirdly, even if the full precautions are taken, stuff happens.

Well then add that to the motivation you get from the thought of raising your child/scene of your child's first moments (which results' I believe should top that of the stress relief), and you're basically a jet.

I am sure that is all very motivating when you can make ends meet, and when you have spare time that you are willing to spend on raising a child, but if you lack those it is much more likely to cause you more stress. In fact parenting will probably always be a stressful experience but worth it. Definitely not stress relieving.

[A-Man]

I'm still not sure how what I said can translate to what you accused me of explicitly stating.

I am sure that is all very motivating when you can make ends meet, and when you have spare time that you are willing to spend on raising a child, but if you lack those it is much more likely to cause you more stress. In fact parenting will probably always be a stressful experience but worth it. Definitely not stress relieving.

Yes, exactly. The relief you gain will sometimes not be enough to overturn your condition. This does not change the situation at all.

Regardless, on a side note, I should mention that I feel better when I'm under stress. It's often good because it keeps you busy, working, motivated and more productive. Too much stress surely backfires though.

[Hate]

Maybe, the world isn't all about you and your stress, maybe if you take responsibility for your acts and had a second thought about this before you get layed, you may actually change your plans for the night, cause life isn't sex,
you had a child, you grow the f*** up and take care of him/her, running away from your problems wont solve them. also killing a human being is not a solution, so once again grow up and take care of your kid cause some people has done the same for you once, I realize they didn't kill when you were one cell did they? they also gave you everything they had, and done their best for you so you can be the best you can be.
Also if you ask me, its all about being mature enough.

[LutiChris]

@Hate
The least someone could do if they were having sex would be adoption, no one should be forced to take care of a kid just because their parents did the same thing, the circumstances may be different and if the parents are not willing to take the child it's better for the child to be adopted and taken care of by another willingly responsible couple that want the child in the first place. However in the case for rape, especially if she is young i don't see how she can simply take care of the child since she was forced into that circumstance. Imposing your beliefs onto someone strictly on the basis because they should be responsible is nonsense.

[A-Man]

However in the case for rape, especially if she is young i don't see how she can simply take care of the child since she was forced into that circumstance.

That becomes the responsibility of the community as a whole then, as a rapist can't raise a child properly, and as it's were the rapist emerged from in the first place.

Imposing your beliefs onto someone strictly on the basis because they should be responsible is nonsense.

But how's demanding someone supposed to be responsible to be held responsible nonsensical?

It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong.

As we don't have a clear understanding of consciousness, this can't be discussed a problem of logic only. I think what @Hate is saying is that abortion should not be taken so lightly as an option you can take, and that you ,as a conscious being, should look into the life of a possibly another conscious being, albeit unknown, as if it were yours.