[C] Walker - 2.08

[YinYin]

I may be repeating previous suggestions, but I'm too lazy to double check.

Phantom Dash
I think the catching dash frame could travel much faster and last less long. More like Bats speed punch. Unless you ditch the speedy looking frame for a run animation similar to Louis' catch. It is also rather hard to get a useful wall bounce with this, if any at all.
Phantom Punch
You might want to stay inside the rising fist frame longer before going into the jump frame (until the very top of the arch). Else the animation looks really weird if you don't do anything in the air. Just give it the same state and hit_ links as the jump frame to enable the combos.
Phantom Guard2
I gotta admit I don't like heavily pre scripted combos like this one. Although having an up and down version of the phantom guard is a good idea (like Johns heal and Woodys teleport).
Phantom Kick
Only the sudden teleport without any sound or animation to back it up breaks this. Visually the sudden movement with little regard to inertia doesn't feel right and for the game play you should at least limit the teleporting range.
Phantom Punch and the loss of air combos
I don't see why the previous combos should not be possible any more. Adjust all the itrs and throws and you should be able to reconnect a lot of things. Also don't drop the jump punching. I really like that part.
Phantom Guard2
To begin with you could try changing both your counters from being an extra character file to this: http://www.lf-empire.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=9084
It's much more fair for the attacker, as he can get past it with a strong hit. You have more options for it (front and back action). And it's less clutter inside the character selection and data.txt.
I think it would be best for both of them to essentially be the same, with a situational twist (like John/Woody mentioned above). DvJ is the quick option that dispatches the opponent fast and reliably (no flipping), while D^J is a combo starter. This difference is enough for me (considering they are one and the same move, but using a different option).
If you do make the change to the cpoint counter, here is what I would also change:
Make the counter stance itself much longer, maybe infinite with the option to move out of it at any time. And use something that looks more 'ready' than 'I'm dizzy'. Here is an edit of the drinking frames that could do:
This thing would have the advantage of being easier to use (timing doesn't have to be as accurate, you can cancel any time, it could work for front and back hits) and the disadvantage of not countering stronger attacks.
Phantom Kick
It could work as a pure follow up, but even then you need to limit the teleport range. Otherwise you may still just start a different move first, simply to get to this one and teleport all over the background. I still wonder why you don't have this aerial downwards kick on J+DvA and the upwards one on J+D^A instead of inverting these directions and replacing one with a rather unfitting aerial arm swing.
Lack of variation
The super attack would be much better off with an uppercut (D^A) that doesn't make Walker jump (stays on the ground with a raised fist).
Either jump or dash attack could use the animation you currently use for J+D^A. This would be all the variation you need on the basics without requiring any new sprites.

General
The character still has quite a few jerky motions with misaligned sprites. The defense frame for instance isn't centered correctly (feet shift around if you press D+><><><...). There are also quite a few swing sounds for attacks missing, making the punches that do have a sound stand out in a weird way.

edit: went through the thread again and I still like this as his run attack:

Also should you ever consider making him run again I would really love to see this as his run attack:

Similar to Woodys, except you would need to continue a combo after the second hit as the last one knocks down.

[支倉凍砂]

I may be repeating previous suggestions, but I'm too lazy to double check.

I'm just glad you are still giving well thought-out responses after all these years! : D

Phantom Dash
I think the catching dash frame could travel much faster and last less long. More like Bats speed punch. Unless you ditch the speedy looking frame for a run animation similar to Louis' catch. It is also rather hard to get a useful wall bounce with this, if any at all.

Roger, I'll speed it up!

I'm not really sure it is possible to make a useful wall bounce of this attack. As the opponent is thrown, you will get hit so he would need an attack that extends his hitbox well outside his hurtbox, and I'm not really sure how I would do that to an unarmed character.
Then again, I'm just reusing the same bounce effect as for SK, so maybe one could tweak a more fitting motion for PD/PC.

The biggest reason I added wall bounce was because you said "add wall bounce to everything" a couple of pages ago. : p

Phantom Punch
You might want to stay inside the rising fist frame longer before going into the jump frame (until the very top of the arch). Else the animation looks really weird if you don't do anything in the air. Just give it the same state and hit_ links as the jump frame to enable the combos.

I agree it looks rather bad. So I should do a makeshift aerial sprite of the punch, and in the last frame(s) give it the same data as #212 so that it both goes to JP and JK, am I getting it right?
I'll certainly make a go at it.

Phantom Guard2
I gotta admit I don't like heavily pre scripted combos like this one. Although having an up and down version of the phantom guard is a good idea (like Johns heal and Woodys teleport).

Phantom Guard2
To begin with you could try changing both your counters from being an extra character file to this: http://www.lf-empire.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=9084
It's much more fair for the attacker, as he can get past it with a strong hit. You have more options for it (front and back action). And it's less clutter inside the character selection and data.txt.
I think it would be best for both of them to essentially be the same, with a situational twist (like John/Woody mentioned above). DvJ is the quick option that dispatches the opponent fast and reliably (no flipping), while D^J is a combo starter. This difference is enough for me (considering they are one and the same move, but using a different option).
If you do make the change to the cpoint counter, here is what I would also change:
Make the counter stance itself much longer, maybe infinite with the option to move out of it at any time. And use something that looks more 'ready' than 'I'm dizzy'. Here is an edit of the drinking frames that could do:
This thing would have the advantage of being easier to use (timing doesn't have to be as accurate, you can cancel any time, it could work for front and back hits) and the disadvantage of not countering stronger attacks.

Wow, stuff has happened in the DC world since my last visit.
How strong is a "stronger attack"? Are we talking fall-values?

The one thing I'm concerned about using this new tecnique for is speed. For some reason state 8000 loads the new character and skips 1F of time in the same frame, so the current counterattacks have instant start-up which I do like.
You can't creates objects in a command frame, so that will cause 1F lag. And objects can't activate their itrs the first 1F they're out either, right? Wouldn't this cause the counterattacks to have a start-up of 3F at best?
If this is the case, I would rather keep the current D↓J as it is, as it is just a tool to get out of a pressured situation and those 2F can really make a difference.

Though, the cluttering in the character select is a valid concern, so I'll be considering it for sure.

As you might have noticed I'm heavily influenced by regular 1-on-1 2D fighters, which is why for me having limited active frames and then having recovery frames for the opponent to punish makes sense. Then again, now I'm not sure what you are meaning by "strong attacks", so it might not be so bad anyhow.

Phantom Kick
Only the sudden teleport without any sound or animation to back it up breaks this. Visually the sudden movement with little regard to inertia doesn't feel right and for the game play you should at least limit the teleporting range.

Phantom Kick
It could work as a pure follow up, but even then you need to limit the teleport range. Otherwise you may still just start a different move first, simply to get to this one and teleport all over the background. I still wonder why you don't have this aerial downwards kick on J+DvA and the upwards one on J+D^A instead of inverting these directions and replacing one with a rather unfitting aerial arm swing.

Do you mean limit the teleporting range as in making it not using the teleporting-state, or is there in fact a way to alter how the teleporting-state works? Do you even think it is an interesting idea?
As I mentioned earlier, maybe making it a follow-up move for each other move, you could fine tune the "homing" action for each move getting rid of the teleporting. Then again, should the move even be there?

I don't know but inverse up and down for the air moves feel natural to me. But maybe that's just me.
It's kind of how Deep has his "up-attack" at down. (Deep is probably the character I've played the most)
I could flip the commands though, it does make more sense when you think about it.

Do you dislike the arm-animation because it is my poor reusing of sprites, or do you just think it is unfitting at all?
This again is "ripped" move, this is kind of the look I was hoping for:


Though, I hadn't even considered putting the multi-hit-kick there, that might be interesting.

Phantom Punch and the loss of air combos
I don't see why the previous combos should not be possible any more. Adjust all the itrs and throws and you should be able to reconnect a lot of things. Also don't drop the jump punching. I really like that part.

You are okay with a really high "bouncing" super/run punch?

Lack of variation
The super attack would be much better off with an uppercut (D^A) that doesn't make Walker jump (stays on the ground with a raised fist).
Either jump or dash attack could use the animation you currently use for J+D^A. This would be all the variation you need on the basics without requiring any new sprites.

Hmhm, noted and will try it out! : D

General
The character still has quite a few jerky motions with misaligned sprites. The defense frame for instance isn't centered correctly (feet shift around if you press D+><><><...). There are also quite a few swing sounds for attacks missing, making the punches that do have a sound stand out in a weird way.

I'm really not prioritizing picture alignment (just grab a weapon) and sounds right now. Any work that goes into that might be gone tomorrow (though I'll try to fix the stuff that is certain to be there, such as defending animation).


Thank you, YinYin, for you continuous input over all this time!


.edit// By the way, regarding the second counterattack: whatabout remaking that special move the original Walker had called stampede, where he grabs the opponent as a meatshield and keeps running forward. I guess it would help when Walker needs to fight multiple characters?

[YinYin]

So I should do a makeshift aerial sprite of the punch, and in the last frame(s) give it the same data as #212 so that it both goes to JP and JK, am I getting it right?
I'll certainly make a go at it.

Well the already existing aerial uppercut frame would do. Then again the whole animation could be cut and pasted into something better fitting for a rising fist. I could do that for you.

How strong is a "stronger attack"? Are we talking fall-values?

Yes, fall values. Reasonable in my opinion.

The one thing I'm concerned about using this new tecnique for is speed. For some reason state 8000 loads the new character and skips 1F of time in the same frame, so the current counterattacks have instant start-up which I do like.
You can't creates objects in a command frame, so that will cause 1F lag. And objects can't activate their itrs the first 1F they're out either, right? Wouldn't this cause the counterattacks to have a start-up of 3F at best?
If this is the case, I would rather keep the current D↓J as it is, as it is just a tool to get out of a pressured situation and those 2F can really make a difference.

Phew, not sure about the speed. To me it seems pretty fast and catches/activates hurtacts right on the frame that opoints. But I wouldn't give the starting frames any bdys apart from the one to be caught anyway, so it would still work as instantly as any other counter.

Do you mean limit the teleporting range as in making it not using the teleporting-state, or is there in fact a way to alter how the teleporting-state works? Do you even think it is an interesting idea?
As I mentioned earlier, maybe making it a follow-up move for each other move, you could fine tune the "homing" action for each move getting rid of the teleporting. Then again, should the move even be there?

I limit teleports by checking for a nearby character with a kind 8 itr first. This can of course still be abused if you have a team mate close by, but it's an option. Otherwise fine tuning it as a follow up is the preferred option. In general the move could be okay if he had other teleporting features too. If it's his only teleport, then it's too cheap in my opinion. Mostly because combining a teleport with an attack by default feels unfair and disorienting. If you let him perform an actual spinny jump to the position instead of teleporting that'd look better.

I don't know but inverse up and down for the air moves feel natural to me. But maybe that's just me.
It's kind of how Deep has his "up-attack" at down. (Deep is probably the character I've played the most)
I could flip the commands though, it does make more sense when you think about it.

Deep works that way because his body motion is in that direction, he crouches down and uses the ground to support the heavy upwards sword swings. He does not push his body weight up. Aerial moves have no support other than the target, which you might as well miss. So naturally the initial motion is usually towards the target. Woodys D^A for example may have the same effect as Deeps DvA, but his motion is more swift/upwards than ground based. (This whole things is also currently the problem with Walkers D^A visuals. The punch is ground based up to the point where his feet still touch the ground. The legs are stretched, the arm is on it's way to swing up onto his shoulder. Then instead of recovering from that swing his glued feed suddenly leave the ground and he flies up.)

Do you dislike the arm-animation because it is my poor reusing of sprites, or do you just think it is unfitting at all?
This again is "ripped" move, this is kind of the look I was hoping for

I guess because it's a poor reuse. The kick animation simply has the required pop to it and you already do have an up and down version of it, making the dull arm swing look unexpected. Also to me that animation looks like a kick too ...

You are okay with a really high "bouncing" super/run punch?

I gotta admit I would prefer the run attack combo I posted earlier. No knock out until the last hit, and you can simply do a different move after the second. That way you can make this punch knock down. And for a high hit the super punch could get the non rising uppercut.

.edit// By the way, regarding the second counterattack: whatabout remaking that special move the original Walker had called stampede, where he grabs the opponent as a meatshield and keeps running forward. I guess it would help when Walker needs to fight multiple characters?

How about adding this feature to the phantom dash and making the Louis throw the ending to it.

[支倉凍砂]

Also to me that animation looks like a kick too ...

It got some deceptive looks:

Spoiler (Click to View)

How about adding this feature to the phantom dash and making the Louis throw the ending to it.

I did just a little experimenting on this and I didn't get it to work to well, so I've put in on hold.


Did some major changes now, I hope and believe you will find at least some of them to your liking.
I did rename some moves as the Phantom-moves-are-on-the-ground and Spectre-moves-are-in-the-air doesn't work now that I implemented that teleporting kick as an air move instead (and without the telporting).

• Phantom Dash (PD)
  
• Ghost Punch (GP)
  
• Spooky Guard (SG)
  
• Spectre Kick (SK)
  
• Wraith kick (WK)
  

is what I'm going with for now. If you have any suggestions for less cheesy names I'm all ears.
Also, with the change to the jump attack, it is not Jump Strong Attack (JS) instead of Jump Kick.

I must say, with the better looking and better working uppercut, the character as a whole feels a lot better.
The removal of Spectre Punch and the new jump attack also feels rather good.
Your suggestion for run attack also works good, though it probably needs it dvxs properly aligned.

Added some sound random sound effects to moves so you get some audio response when doing special moves. They are not at all final.


As always, comments and critique is much welcomed!

[YinYin]

Also to me that animation looks like a kick too ...

It got some deceptive looks

Yeah. Still cannot really see whether that black streak is created by his arm,leg or sword. The legs still make most sense because they are the largest black area on him, the arms wouldn't have that reach and a sword slash should definitely look different.

If you have any suggestions for less cheesy names I'm all ears.

No. Cheesy is good.

[支倉凍砂]

The black streak starts where his hand is the frame before and it is located on his Punch button not Kick button, which is enough for me to be convinced that he does it with his hand. Regarding the reach, think of it as an energy wave maybe?

By the way, I forgot to put it in the post up there, but there is a download link for 2.05 in the thread opening post.

[YinYin]

The black streak starts where his hand is the frame before and it is located on his Punch button not Kick button, which is enough for me to be convinced that he does it with his hand.

That makes sense for the player then. I just don't know the game.

By the way, I forgot to put it in the post up there, but there is a download link for 2.05 in the thread opening post.

Oh.

2.05
2014-03-29

Download Link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mksewzlpa3abn6....05%5D.rar

The 3 run attack punches are very risky with the auto linking, better have the player connect them manually by pressing attack.

The aerial punching seems to be starting with a hurt frame that doesn't fit very well into the animation. And while the new jump attack follows very well onto the D^A (I like how you can turn and punch him back) putting two extra punches in between doesn't push the opponent far enough.

The D^A itself looks better now, but he pulls his arm back to his body way too soon to stay stiff in the last frame until he lands. Maybe increase the wait on some of the frames so the animation is better distributed over the whole jump.

The dash attacks rest is too low and the knock down property seems weird. If you dash attack Louis it will first hit his armor and then knock him straight to the ground. Better give it a forward momentum, the same direction as the dash itself.

Phantom Dash controls great now. At such high speed you should try to adjust the catching itr as precisely as possible as you sometimes catch your opponent from behind, which makes you turn.
Also the throw and the distance could use some adjustment. If you perform two in a row you will currently get hit by the thrown opponent. Either avoid that my moving the distances or timing apart, or actually allow a recatch.
Being a catch this might also be better on D>J to accompany the counter grab on DvJ instead of being mixed with the kicks and punches.

The two special kicks connect pretty nicely to the D^A. Even more awesome would be a D^A+D^A+D>A combo.
Also I could totally see the DvA having both an aerial and a ground (sliding) version.

Here is an edit of the D^A:

Most important is ditching the frame with the rising fist where his feet are still both glued to the ground. Such a frame always implies that he never really left off, as you usually jump with one leg and rise the other one first (standing with both stretched means all upward energy from the legs is lost). In my edit I choose the front leg to be the kicking one and the back leg as rising first, since that's where he can get the most push for the punch. After that I only changed his head movement a little and added a relaxation frame. Only the 3 frames in the center are edited, first and last are the original start and the back dash.

[支倉凍砂]

The 3 run attack punches are very risky with the auto linking, better have the player connect them manually by pressing attack.

Roger.

The aerial punching seems to be starting with a hurt frame that doesn't fit very well into the animation.

You know what, I noticed that yesterday too, and I have no idea why.

And while the new jump attack follows very well onto the D^A (I like how you can turn and punch him back) putting two extra punches in between doesn't push the opponent far enough.

Noticed that now. I haven't checked the hitbox for the new punch either, and I'm pretty sure I need to do that too.

The D^A itself looks better now, but he pulls his arm back to his body way too soon to stay stiff in the last frame until he lands. Maybe increase the wait on some of the frames so the animation is better distributed over the whole jump.

I've edited using your sprites.

The dash attacks rest is too low and the knock down property seems weird. If you dash attack Louis it will first hit his armor and then knock him straight to the ground. Better give it a forward momentum, the same direction as the dash itself.

Do you mean "the dash attacks" as in "the dash attack's" or the "dash attacks'"?
I guess you mean the prior and changed "arest: 6" to "vrest: 15". Nothing wrong with your dash attack hitting multiple opponents, right?

Phantom Dash controls great now. At such high speed you should try to adjust the catching itr as precisely as possible as you sometimes catch your opponent from behind, which makes you turn.

Yeah, I've noticed that is a scary high percentage when you turn. How do you go on about fixing that? Making sure the itr is only in front of Walker's body?

Also the throw and the distance could use some adjustment. If you perform two in a row you will currently get hit by the thrown opponent. Either avoid that my moving the distances or timing apart, or actually allow a recatch.

Recatch? Do you mean there actually is a way to catch an opponent in state 12? o_o

Being a catch this might also be better on D>J to accompany the counter grab on DvJ instead of being mixed with the kicks and punches.

There is a reason why I avoid D>J. LF2 isn't built for using special commands in the air and there is in fact a bug I discovered with this.
If you input a special command in the air by pressing all the buttons at the same time rather than after each other (i.e. D+↑+A, instead of D↑A), and then actually perform a move in the air, when you land the game will still read it as you have pressed D as long as you don't press A again. (you might need to hold the D+↑+A for the bug to occur)
Which means if you do J, D+↑+A, →, J you will activate D→J. I don't think this is good as you might want to jump after opponents after doing the air specials.

The two special kicks connect pretty nicely to the D^A. Even more awesome would be a D^A+D^A+D>A combo.

Do you mean "D^A, JD^A, DvA" or do you have even greater plans?

Also I could totally see the DvA having both an aerial and a ground (sliding) version.

Like he powers up, and the glide kicks? (Unblockable because it is too low to block? XD)
On hit can go to uppercut?
Should it multihit also, similar to Louis Thunderkick?

[YinYin]

Do you mean "the dash attacks" as in "the dash attack's" or the "dash attacks'"?
I guess you mean the prior and changed "arest: 6" to "vrest: 15". Nothing wrong with your dash attack hitting multiple opponents, right?

Nothing wrong with a vrest there, no. I prefer my possessive s without apostrophe. If I meant plural I would've also said "rests".

Yeah, I've noticed that is a scary high percentage when you turn. How do you go on about fixing that? Making sure the itr is only in front of Walker's body?

Yes. What you really have to make sure while doing that is that the itr cannot interact with a character who has his center behind Walker.

Recatch? Do you mean there actually is a way to catch an opponent in state 12?

Yes, increase the fall value of the itr, like any other itr that is supposed to hit a state 12 opponent.

There is a reason why I avoid D>J. LF2 isn't built for using special commands in the air and there is in fact a bug I discovered with this.
If you input a special command in the air by pressing all the buttons at the same time rather than after each other (i.e. D+↑+A, instead of D↑A), and then actually perform a move in the air, when you land the game will still read it as you have pressed D as long as you don't press A again. (you might need to hold the D+↑+A for the bug to occur)
Which means if you do J, D+↑+A, →, J you will activate D→J. I don't think this is good as you might want to jump after opponents after doing the air specials.

Yes, I know about this. And I actually like abusing it for combos such as Woodys D>A+J (performs D>A+D>J). And since you can easily cancel these kind of things by pushing just one button (a direction will do) it's not a big deal to me. You have plenty of time to do that before you land. I would still prefer the same kind of moves to end on the same button.

edit: also LF2 is build for aerial specials, even though only Woodys teleports use that.

On that note I now do have some suggestions on the names. As the previous ground/aerial grouping was a good idea I think you can again group them very well by type:

The grappling moves:
Phantom Dash (PD)
Phantom Guard (PG, Spooky sounds a little silly)

The upwards moves:
Spectre Punch (SP, I prefer Spectre over Ghost - but naming both Ghost would be fine too)
Spectre Kick (SK)

The forward kicks:
Dive Kick (DK, Wraith sounds a bit too powerful for this kick in my opinion)
Slide Kick (SK, so I would go with something more descriptive for the air and ground version, 'Kick' is the grouping word here)

edit: To not have the SK abbreviation double you might choose Ghost over Spectre

Do you mean "D^A, JD^A, DvA" or do you have even greater plans?

The recatch.

Like he powers up, and the glide kicks? (Unblockable because it is too low to block? XD)
On hit can go to uppercut?
Should it multihit also, similar to Louis Thunderkick?

Yes. A direct uppercut follow would be a long way considering the ending body position and the start of the uppercut are very far apart. The upwards kick right out of it might work instead. To be honest I don't really like the multi hit on it because unlike Louis he only stretches out one leg.

[支倉凍砂]

Yes. What you really have to make sure while doing that is that the itr cannot interact with a character who has his center behind Walker.

I split it into two itr's, with the rear one going into a direction correction frame and it seems to work rather good!

I would still prefer the same kind of moves to end on the same button.

Wouldn't a character without D→A hurt your LF2-soul? O_O

LF2 is build for aerial specials, even though only Woodys teleports use that.

Totally forgot you can actually do that in the air, I stand corrected.

On that note I now do have some suggestions on the names. As the previous ground/aerial grouping was a good idea I think you can again group them very well by type:

The grappling moves:
Phantom Dash (PD)
Phantom Guard (PG, Spooky sounds a little silly)

The upwards moves:
Spectre Punch (SP, I prefer Spectre over Ghost - but naming both Ghost would be fine too)
Spectre Kick (SK)

The forward kicks:
Dive Kick (DK, Wraith sounds a bit too powerful for this kick in my opinion)
Slide Kick (SK, so I would go with something more descriptive for the air and ground version, 'Kick' is the grouping word here)

Aww, I liked the silliness of Spooky Guard. XD
Noted, however.
Did you try out the "hidden" taunt move I added?

To be honest I don't really like the multi hit on it because unlike Louis he only stretches out one leg.

True that. What about adding a spinning animation, like he drills downwards?
Or would you just rather see him go straight through the opponent landing first?

I'm a little skeptical to the ground based kick. Wouldn't it do the same thing as the Phantom Dash? (as in avoiding attacks through low profiling)

Yes, increase the fall value of the itr, like any other itr that is supposed to hit a state 12 opponent.

...

By the Gods! O_O
It actually works! I can swear that the last time I tried my dreams were crushed 'cause I couldn't get it to work.
I thought they had to be burning or frozen!
Wow, just wow...
My life is complete...