Abortion

[STM1993]

I'm still not sure how what I said can translate to what you accused me of explicitly stating.

Allow me to explain.

Responsibility is not merely taking ownership of something; a truly responsible person knows and admits his own limits. Consider this: Alex, Bob & Charlie are at a dock. Alex accidentally pushes Bob into the sea. Alex is now responsible for Bob. However, both Alex and Bob can't swim. Would Alex be considered responsible if he were to dive into the sea to save Bob regardless? No, he would be deemed utterly irresponsible and foolish for causing even more trouble for Charlie, who is a swimmer, since he now needs to save 2 people instead of 1.

Now, let's look at the case for raising a child. In order to raise a child, the things you must have:
A) Financial power. A child cannot thrive on an empty stomach or lack of education.
B) Time to look after the child. What good can the best caretakers in the world do if they are always away?
C) Ability to provide a nurturing environment(Capable). Even if the caretakers are rich and have time to look after the child, the child will not grow up well if said caretakers are constantly fighting, teaching the wrong things etc.

People want their kids to grow up the best way possible; "just enough" will not suffice for most people.

Now, quoting you,

I'm not sure about this being taken lightly and being available as an option. A much better option could've been made beforehand that could save the couple and the baby the trouble.
...

Are you saying that they should take care of the baby no matter what even without the confidence that they can take care of it?

I am saying that only if they're ready to be held responsible for the result shall they even attempt taking that risk.
...
Capable does not mean rich; just to have enough, so that in the rare scenario of you ending up with a son/daughter, you're able to provide them with the necessities at least. Otherwise, please keep your rope away from the well.

You didn't really elaborate on the first line, but it seemed that you were suggesting that the whole situation could have been prevented with planning beforehand. I actually agree with you here, but its the next two sentences that give the wrong idea.

The second line, in the context of sex, explicitly says that a couple must be ready to take responsibility of pregnancy/having a child before they even attempt to have sex of any kind - ie be prepared for things to go wrong. I actually agree with you on this. However, I mentioned that this line of thought is not realistic; people take similar or greater risks everyday(like driving or flying in an airplane) without incidence - condoms themselves are effective enough to make sex a viable pastime without undergoing things like vasectomy & storing sperm in a sperm bank. At the same time, people only want to have children when they feel they are able to handle them, not every time they have sex; why have a child now when I can build up my career first to get a steady environment? People want the best of both worlds and a safety net in case things go wrong - and abortion is the last safety net when everything goes wrong.

That's where the translation happens from the last 2 statements. You're basically saying that no matter how many precautions taken and when everything goes wrong, even the final option of abortion shouldn't be allowed, and every couple must take the responsibility regardless. If a couple can't afford to take the responsibility, they shouldn't have sex. Since only a couple that has money, time and capability can take proper responsibility to raise a child - it therefore implies that only such rich, free and capable couples should ever attempt to have sex.

Anyway, I feel that only an irresponsible couple will attempt to raise a child when they don't even have the right factors to raise a child. As such, I do support legal abortion along with other reasons I've stated.

ALL THAT SAID, I do agree it is best to first emphasize contraception to avoid the whole mess altogether, followed by adoption if the mother is reasonably capable of enduring pregnancy, and only abortion as a final step - though only because it is the most damaging of the 3 options; I honestly do not care about the whole consciousness thing when we tend to take non-human living things for granted.

[Hate]

@Hate
The least someone could do if they were having sex would be adoption, no one should be forced to take care of a kid just because their parents did the same thing, the circumstances may be different and if the parents are not willing to take the child it's better for the child to be adopted and taken care of by another willingly responsible couple that want the child in the first place. However in the case for rape, especially if she is young i don't see how she can simply take care of the child since she was forced into that circumstance. Imposing your beliefs onto someone strictly on the basis because they should be responsible is nonsense.

circumstances are to be considered before having the affair if you don't want a child now is the time to say no, not after the kid is born. and just because everyone do it doesn't make it right or good. and am sure there's alot of orphans that needs love and care, but apperantly for you its not enough to already have these huge numbers of childs who need care that you want more of them, kids living in the streets with no name or future or even food just because there's some jerks who had a hobbie to have sex. and dont remember montioning any rape did I, rape is not related to this topic, and rape is a serieuse crime, rapers must be executed. am not imposing my beliefs on anyone, they just should be responsible this life is not a game you can walk out of anytime you want, you done something you pay the bills.

[A-Man]

People want their kids to grow up the best way possible; "just enough" will not suffice for most people.

Likewise, "Rich" is not necessary either, and such an environment might further spoil a child. Finances were never all a child need to be raised properly. "Just enough" money and a loving supporting parents should be Just enough.

Responsibility is not merely taking ownership of something; a truly responsible person knows and admits his own limits.

That's very true.

But the case in your examples and abortion are different in one key point. If you're comparing the above to the accident of making the lady pregnant, then allow me to say that the child would NOT be killed by the accident, but with what would compare to, even if some of you might see this as an exaggeration, a premeditated murder.

You didn't really elaborate on the first line, but it seemed that you were suggesting that the whole situation could have been prevented with planning beforehand.

Yes, actually, that is exactly what I meant. Before we go into what's realistic and what's not, I should mention that things aren't as black and white as you picture. Now even if they were, then adoption can serve as the final resort. The exception would be when it's about saving either one of the 2 parties; the mother or the child.

To be realistic, to how much degree do condoms and other affordable precautions reduce the risk? And what is the actual rate of abortion that started by an accident AFTER taking these precautions compared to that?

[MangaD]

It all comes down to the values one stands for.

To live or not to live...

Spoiler (Click to View)

The question is, is it righteous? This is where moral comes in, to impose values for everyone, so that we don't end up killing each other. Basically this. Now, you can debate whether the fetus is alive or not, conscious or not, human or not...

Certainly there are many reasons why abortion is convenient to us, though.

[sadbhav]

Butting in.

You guys seem focused on a baby being had by a couple. Although that is the majority case, we also have to consider:

Intercourse between people who barely know each other is always a possibility. While I agree it would be an extremely stupid decision to do so without precautions, the fact remains that it is does happen.

But, in such a case why should the baby be punished a parents mistake? A child born in an environment that doesn't really want it is hardly healthy.

And don't even get me started on those who start off at 15 or 16. They do not have the emotional maturity (among other things) to raise a kid.

Note: The kid may come at 18 or 19, too. That's not much better, is it?

[Som1Lse]

There is also pregnancy as a result of rape to consider.

[Gespenst]

Let's face it, abortion is bad. No matter what you will say "She was raped and got pregnant", well still abortion is not justified.
It's your fault for getting raped. Joking. Raping is bad but abortion is also bad. You can use "Morning after pills"

[MnM]

I think Faker you are stating your view at this problem. It differs from person to person. We discussed this at great lengths on irc, I will post solid justifications tomorrow in my debate thread ( I have to sleep now :P )

[Gespenst]

So, my "view at this problem" is not called my "thoughts on this matter" ?

[MnM]

Word play much ? ;P to be precise what STM has said in his last post is pretty much the conclusion.

Abortion is right or wrong cannot be decided by the society. It's a personal thing between two people. You don't involve society in a personal act. Things will look confusing if you look at it that way. If it is a religious thing you follow, it's upto you.

There can be no general theory regarding abortion as pregnancy can happen in lots of different ways. We ( myself , STM and MangaD) felt that there can be a common data base shared by all the hospitals irrespective of the organisation maintaining track records of abortion. If it is a rape thank God it can be found out and free abortions can be performed. I think is pretty much it. I need time to condense other stuffs. Good night one last time.