[Sign-ups] LF2 Tournament!

[kamiloslav]

as the tournament is 1vs1

[Boop]

Thats basically going to be a random result for the most part, be it an advanced AI or not..

You can do like 10 rounds between 2 AI's to determine the best. You can even use F5 to fasten the process. The luck factor won't matter so much.

It will still depend on brackets. One AI might be amazing against certain types of AI's by sacrificing being good against other types of AI's (just an example).

I would say the only fair way would be to do a giant round robin and the winner is the AI with the most wins.

I will participate in an AI tournament but not a regular one. I don't see why we can't have both to be honest . Then the winner of the player tournament can battle the AI winner when both tournaments are complete .

[MangaD]

as the tournament is 1vs1

That is what I have in mind. Because it is difficult for players to meet due to timezones.

[Bamboori]

I feel like participating, but it really depends on when it will be.

[mfc]

things

Silva why don't you participate here again? Last time you won with ease *wink wink*
Would be cool to see your fighting skills again.


Current poll:
Arthur, Davidharry, kamiloslav, LutiChris, MangaD, mfc, prince_freeza, STM1993, Trouble Maker

Also, I expected more people to join, a bit saddening not to see some people here.

[MangaD]

« Moved post to start of thread »

[mfc]

you are free to debate and decide on different rules, the majority will decide.
Rudolf: Cloning (D V J) is prohibited.
But I allow everyone to do as many Dragon Punches with Davis as you can!!!( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Why limit Davis D^A (dragonpuch, dp)?

First, some piece of irc log where we discussed a bit, i want to continue from where we left off. And interject from the parts of it.

original irc log (Click to View)

15:08:58 <mfc> 1) it can activate at times where most other chars just has to wait to get hit
15:09:19 <Ramond> it can but it's the attacker's problem to prevent that
15:09:20 <mfc> 2) too much damage output at very low price(compared to tiger dash)
15:09:21 <Stm93> chars can recover from punch faster than injury
15:09:36 <Ramond> the lesson is, don't punch a davis with enough mp for dp
15:09:37 <Ramond> done
15:09:38 <MangaD> People miss DP a lot of times
15:09:40 <Ramond> adjust your tactics
15:09:43 <MangaD> and it takes a lot of mp too
15:09:51 <Ramond> pretend to attack or get close to him
15:09:52 <Ramond> let him miss dp
15:09:54 <Ramond> you retaliate
15:09:54 <MangaD> while leaving you open
15:10:14 <Stm93> yeah Davis DP no limit should be fine
15:10:21 <mfc> 3) he is invincible at many frames(no body) and this muchly compensates the fact that he is wide open after a failed attempt
15:10:36 <Stm93> he is only invincible for the first 2 frames
15:10:40 *** Pf__ (~prince_fr@41.254.9.231) has joined #lfe
15:10:43 <Ramond> he is invincible the first frame, and maybe the second. get your facts straight
15:10:51 <Ramond> you're not gonna want to hit him during those frames anyway
15:10:53 <mfc> a smart davis player will hardly miss those dragonpunches and abuse it whole game
15:10:53 <Ramond> so that point is moot
15:11:34 <Ramond> the more rules a tournament has the more hassle it is. just keep it simple
15:11:41 <mfc> i dont think there are any other chars that has similar invincibilities before such an op move
15:11:55 <Ramond> you still dont get it
15:12:01 <Ramond> the dp invincibility is practically useless
15:12:06 <Stm93> ^
15:12:20 <Ramond> if the dp connects, enemy cant retaliate anyway
15:12:24 <mfc> it makes it unavoidable except by defending
15:12:34 <Ramond> if it doesnt, you will be in the air from dp, it will be easy for enemy to predict where you land
15:12:39 <Stm93> mind games, if you bnlock it you can retaliate
15:12:42 <Ramond> unavoidable? just don't get hit
15:12:45 <Stm93> its the same logic as Woody's mixup games

1) it can activate at times where most other chars just has to wait to get hit
<Ramond> it can but it's the attacker's problem to prevent that
<Ramond> the lesson is, don't punch a davis with enough mp for dp
<Ramond> adjust your tactics
This means you cannot try to simple punch a much mp davis. This limits you too much. Not being able to use such fundamental moves against a character is OP.
<Ramond> pretend to attack or get close to him
<Ramond> let him miss dp
<Ramond> you retaliate
<MangaD> while leaving you open
<MangaD> People miss DP a lot of times
What you say here will work on weak players. But experienced fighters are pretty much immune to simple tactics like that. And players who miss dp too much are weak anyways, this rule have been never meant fort hem anyways, you can beat their louisEx’s with your template too if the skill gap is that big.
<MangaD> and it takes a lot of mp too
And it does too much damage too and very avoidable too.
2) too much damage output at very low price(compared to tiger dash)
3) he is invincible at many frames(no body) and this muchly compensates the fact that he is wide open after a failed attempt

<Stm93> he is only invincible for the first 2 frames
<Ramond> he is invincible the first frame, and maybe the second. get your facts straight
The beginning is the most important part. For most other characters, you can block their special moves with your long ranged itrs. Like use ice sword to block the initiation of a deep dva or stop a fire run of firen or stop DvA of dennis. Davis is basically immune to all this. What can you do? Don’t get close? Limiting as hell.
<Ramond> you're not gonna want to hit him during those frames anyway
<Ramond> the dp invincibility is practically useless
<Stm93> ^
No, he is invincible at the initiation phase where you actually want to block him. See you can even block Henry flüte with a kick with before it starts. But such an OP move like dp is not stoppable. All you can do is avoid or bait(which wont work vs experienced players). Lame. And Invincibilty he carries is anything but useless.
<Ramond> if the dp connects, enemy cant retaliate anyway
This is a strong part of dp, i respect that.
<Ramond> if it doesnt, you will be in the air from dp, it will be easy for enemy to predict where you land
Experienced players are very less likely to give you such an easy opening. Only advicable if you are playing against a bad davis player.
<Ramond> unavoidable? just don't get hit
Yeah, never get close to davis in this tournament, he possesses infinite dragonpunches.
Don’t get hit, dont get hit by this OP move.

And while allowing infinite dp, banning rudolf cloning alltogether instead of at least limiting it to 1 or 2. The guy prays for like 100 years just so he can give birth to 2 of his offsprings. You have time of the universe to hit him to prevent. mfw

---

Just to be on the clear side:

Code:

<frame> 300 singlong
   pic: 170  state: 3  wait: 1  next: 301  dvx: 7  dvy: -9  dvz: 0  centerx: 30  centery: 76  hit_a: 0  hit_d: 0  hit_j: 0 mp: 225
  sound: data\095.wav
   wpoint:
      kind: 1  x: 31  y: 39  weaponact: 30  attacking: 0  cover: 1  dvx: 0  dvy: 0  dvz: 0
   wpoint_end:
<frame_end>

<frame> 301 singlong
   pic: 171  state: 3  wait: 1  next: 302  dvx: 0  dvy: 0  dvz: 0  centerx: 28  centery: 79  hit_a: 0  hit_d: 0  hit_j: 0
  sound: data\031.wav
   wpoint:
      kind: 1  x: 37  y: 39  weaponact: 30  attacking: 0  cover: 1  dvx: 0  dvy: 0  dvz: 0
   wpoint_end:
   itr:
      kind: 0  x: 10  y: 3  w: 72  h: 75  dvx: 7  dvy: -13  fall: 70  vrest: 10  bdefend: 60  injury: 85  
   itr_end:
<frame_end>

<frame> 302 singlong
   pic: 172  state: 3  wait: 1  next: 303  dvx: 0  dvy: 0  dvz: 0  centerx: 26  centery: 81  hit_a: 0  hit_d: 0  hit_j: 0
   wpoint:
      kind: 1  x: 36  y: 42  weaponact: 30  attacking: 0  cover: 1  dvx: 0  dvy: 0  dvz: 0
   wpoint_end:
   itr:
      kind: 0  x: 13  y: -1  w: 67  h: 80  dvx: 7  dvy: -11  fall: 70  vrest: 10  bdefend: 60  injury: 60  
   itr_end:
   bdy:
      kind: 0  x: 19  y: 7  w: 36  h: 69
   bdy_end:
<frame_end>

This is first 2 frames of OP DP. See, no body in first frame.
No body in 2nd frame. But Look at that itr. Such wide area, 70 fall and 60 injury. You simply cannot block this by attacking back. He exists in a different dimension at these frames. But can deal you such defend breaking itr.

You can defend a dragonpunch. But that is not what happens in high level games.
I am davis, you are p2.
We are in a normal punch fight, you hit the first punch, normally i should lose the rest. But I am davis, I will just DP you and win the fight. You were trying to punch me, not defend.

Most you can do is to stay away from me or to bait me. But I have stated all on above

[STM1993]

Here's what I feel about Davis' dragon punch.

1. I think the main issue with Davis' dragon punch is that it is a bit too effective if you are turtling; i.e. deliberately baiting someone to attack first and then dragon punch before his itr connects. That is really the crux of mfc's argument, that you cannot really counter-punch Davis as he begins the move as a result. In this case yes, the initial 4tu invincibility is a thing.
   
2. Furthermore, dragon punch costs 225mp for about 130dmg, basically 1/2mp for 1/4hp. That is undeniably a lot of damage, especially when you compare it to Firen's explosion which is much more difficult and costly to use(I'm aware about D>AAA, but that combo has a tendency to miss).
   
3. On the other hand, Davis is kind of predictable. If you notice your opponent has enough mp for a dragon punch, then chances are that is something he'll try to pull off. Its time to play mindgames with Davis and block if you predict he's going to do it right then, the same way you need to decide whether to flip out  of a fall or not. Davis becomes extremely punishable when he is blocked or misses his uppercut.
   
4. I've also looked at the frame data of punching, injury & dragon punch's initial frames, and confirmed with hitlag values(3tu, same for hitting & being hit) & practical tests - there should be no worry of Davis simply hit-confirming into dragon punch, nor really any worry of Davis being able to counter uppercut from injury without being able to block it:
   
5. Davis takes 6tu to cooldown from a punch assuming you hit at the instant the itr takes effect, or 5tu if you get hit at the end of it. Injury lasts for 7tu. Uppercut takes an additional 2tu before the itr takes effect. You have just enough time to press block if you aren't in DOP or broken_defend. The same applies to DvA's last hit which can also be cancelled into DP, but again, can be blocked.
   
6. I'm aware a number of LF2 competitive scenes limit the dragon punch generally to x2, mostly because of the sheer damage. Ramond has stated that he feels that restricting moves by an arbitrary number is counter-intuitive and it would be better to either fully ban a move or fully allow it.
   

Personally I don't really care either way, I'm just playing casually for fun a game where the community endorses fighting in lag. The only three moves I really have any issue with are Rudolf's DvJ clones only because you're fighting against the AI rather than the player, Henry's D^J flute which truly is unavoidable just by simply being in the wrong spot of the z-axis and not already having a homing projectile(plus Henry can very easily kite & get back mana for the flute), and Dennis being able to spam like 4-5 chasing balls in one instance - but mostly just the flute.

[A-Man]

I agree with Ramond about the move limit being counter-intuitive. How about nerfing the moves with DC?

[STM1993]

How about nerfing the moves with DC?

Well, it wouldn't really be LF2 anymore, would it?

Not to mention a lot of organizing problems that comes with custom data - agreeing on what to change in the data, making sure everyone has the same data, and even then LF2 can be really finnicky online with custom data.